First, thank you KI for seeking our input on your upcoming changes to the pvp system. It's great to know that our voices are heard.
Treasure card use in pvp. I'm sure every avid pvp player is aware that treasure cards(TC) are a valuable, even necessary tool in a pvp match. They allow you to fill needs in your deck that your school or training point usage may not otherwise allow you to address. They also allow for greater creativity and diversity of play. With TCs a life wizard can heal around a life dispel, an ice wizard can use a ninja pig to finish off an opponent who has an ice shield up before that opponent has a chance to heal. The issue with TCs at the moment is that they have no level restriction. This means that very low level wizards can access very high powered spells. Spells that other low level or inexperienced wizards have no defense for. This means that new players to the arena are either forced to quit pvp, or resort to using the same over powered spells. the result is that low level pvp has degraded into an arms race of who can launh their over level TC first. Fewer and fewer players are developing the skills and familiarity with thier own trained spells they will need at higher levels.
My proposed solution to this is a level cap on TCs as well as cards from pets and gear. I have been part of many discussions on this matter with other avid pvp players, the consensus seems to be that allowin players to use TCS ten levels above their own would be a fair compromise. This would restrict players from using spells that their opponents do not have a realistic counter for while still allowing players to use TCs to "preview upcoming spells, thus allowing them to make informed decisions as to training point usage etc. Players would still be able obtain Treasure cards for the purposes of crafting or card collecting, they simply would not be able to cast them until the appropriate level. Same with pet cards, the pet could be equiped, the card would simply remaingreyed out unless the pet was equiped on a wizard of the appropriate level. Cards on gear from hoardpacks could scale with level as the stats do now.
I do belive this would reguire for a few spells to be learned at different levels than they are now. Reshuffle would probably needto be moved to level 10 or 15. Tough and keen eyes could first be learned around level 15 also, then the subsequent spells in those lines could be spaced accordingly through the levels, still allowing lower level wizards a chance to deal with the higher health minions.
Again, thank you for asking our opinions and thank you for taking the time to read this.
First of all in the current matching system my 800 health lvl 15 fire gets regularly paired with lvl 40 wizards due to my high rank. I just fought a lvl 41 ice and the health difference was 800-2800 in the match. In this situation the level 41 (already at a major health advantage, more main and side deck space, more accuracy and pips) would have access to lvl 48 damage spells and pets where at the same time the lvl 15 would be further limited with spell choices... Not my idea of a fair match.
My question to the OP is this- If you are having problems with taking damage after basically willingly putting yourself at a health disadvantage (CHOOSING to fight with an under level character)why not level up to ease your pain?
This is not only an organized attempt to adopt wizard central rules in the main pvp function but also a means of making pvp more affordable for people with great rank (like the op) and also to slim down the small chance of their mid level warlords of takeing a simple loss. PvP at lower levels is about adapting to conditions in the main game and should not be altered to mirror a broken low level tournament structure that doesn't create equality (myth and fire always win for obvious reasons)
I play low level with many people who have adjusted to higher damage spells and I've posted pictures on another fan site of these spells damage being reducted to hit for less than 100 with proper defensive techniques and arena provided resist gear. That takes preparation though and not everyone is prepared to do that, I trust the game many of us love will not be altered and dumbed down for the hopes of these individuals to get easier matches.
Personally rank 7,8 spells are not even plausible with a low level character because the ability to get yellow pips is a rare at lower levels and takes an enormous amount of time to set an attack that can be blocked by simply shielding.
I buy crowns solely for preparing my side deck for low level matches with the possibility of fighting people three times my lvl (which i don't mind doing) If Kingsisle were to restrict the only equalizing factor in pvp (ability to use cards that my opponent can train) I would just spend my money on something else and leave the game.
I am not looking for easier matches, if I was I would simply usea few overpowered cards myself. My hope is that low level pvp will returnto what I feel it was meant to be, a place where you learn the basics of pvp and how to properly utilize your trained spells. Not a race to see who can get off the first unshielded zilla in a quest for rank.
Lol, you can't inflate your rank with op cards and then claim you need those op cards because your rank causes you to fight higher level wizards. Even if you use that arguement, if op cards allow you to beat level 40 wizards, you will simply start fighting level45 or 50 wizards. Either way you will reach a rank cieling at some point.
This idea is not only about restricting cards. There are quite a few cards that could lose their current restrictions if level limits were in place. High level wizards that spent money on myth mastery amulets would once again be allowed to use talos tcs. People who wanted to try polymorph tcs in pvp could do so. We could finally sell all those polymorphs we get from gardening. The higher level sun school spells could be tradeable again. I know I get tired of selling unstopable on my death wiz and buying them back at a losson my life wiz.
Discussions with Avid PvP players? Is that a joke?
In all due seriousness, have any of you done the math? Think of low level PvP for a minute. Now, think of the Treasure cards that would be allowed for low level PVP, then think of the healing cards that would be allowed for low level PvP. It would be impossible to defeat a low level wizard.
Then you would have to take out pets as well. I don't think this was a very long or thorough discussion, because you have missed all the facts.
I do agree there should be a level restriction on treasure cards, but disagree with it being 10 levels. I am an avid PvP player as well as a quester and in my questing I noticed that at level 3-4 we are given our 1st treasure card, it’s a Seraph. Now a Seraph is a level 22 spell, but we are given it early in the game. After defeating the Kraken, we are given our next level 22 treasure card. If you follow storyline only, you receive this Kraken treasure card at level 8. It’s obvious KI wants us to be able to try out these more powerful spells at lower levels. If you follow the dropped treasure cards through questing the magic number is more like 20 levels. With a 20 level restriction, everyone would still be able to use reshuffle treasures and any other treasure card they’ve received while questing while allowing the arena to be cleansed of the extreme high level treasures in low level PvP. I believe 10 levels is a bit too easy for dueling, a level 28 should be able to stop a Triton, as well as a level 5 defending against a Seraph and Kraken. I would love to see the card restriction apply to the pets as well or we would be pitched back into the days of whoever hatched their Orthrus first wins. As for the complaint by Travis about not being able to maintain or gain rank against higher level opponents is ludicrous. I have taken 6 low/mid-level characters to warlord easily using only trained spells. Including 2 magus who both have over 1000k in rank fighting against legendaries. There is a lower rank ceiling in low/mid-level PvP for a reason. Why would we ever aspire to level our characters if there wasn’t? I don’t feel the arena needs to be dumbed down because you cannot find pride in a rank that could be obtained naturally. Remember, we choose to be handicapped at low/mid-level, it’s what makes it so exciting.
Being a "tournament master" over at central you should try to wrap your head around the idea that playing pvp with an under level character comes with an accepted risk of dying with low health, or getting affected by higher damage spells. The option is always there to level up your character in order to bear the brunt of these spells, after all fighting with a health disadvantage isn't for everybody. You can't just start banning cards and pets to compensate for a disadvantage in the game that you have chosen for yourself, it doesn't work like that.
DarthJT was right here. When you factor in resist, in game damage reduction spells (shields, absorb, weakness) heals and pet healing talents there is not enough cards to build enough damage to kill your opponent at low level... And telling people they can't use cards on their pets after spending real money on them is like a bad joke nobody want to hear and can't understand. No, just no.
Discussions with Avid PvP players? Is that a joke?
In all due seriousness, have any of you done the math? Think of low level PvP for a minute. Now, think of the Treasure cards that would be allowed for low level PVP, then think of the healing cards that would be allowed for low level PvP. It would be impossible to defeat a low level wizard.
Then you would have to take out pets as well. I don't think this was a very long or thorough discussion, because you have missed all the facts.
Lowering the level of the treasure cards and taking out pet spells would make them invincible? darthjt, you're awesome and helpful, but this doesn't make much sense.
I do agree there should be a level restriction on treasure cards, but disagree with it being 10 levels. I am an avid PvP player as well as a quester and in my questing I noticed that at level 3-4 we are given our 1st treasure card, it’s a Seraph. Now a Seraph is a level 22 spell, but we are given it early in the game. After defeating the Kraken, we are given our next level 22 treasure card. If you follow storyline only, you receive this Kraken treasure card at level 8. It’s obvious KI wants us to be able to try out these more powerful spells at lower levels. If you follow the dropped treasure cards through questing the magic number is more like 20 levels.
You can not draw lines from PvP to PvE and expect people to believe misinformation like this. The facts are that in a level range matching system a level 20 of high rank can get paired with someone 30 levels higher than them, this is nothing like fighting a mindless kraken in the main game. That is more like taking that level 20 wizard and porting him to Dragonspyre where they are not fighting just fighting a boss 30 levels ahead of them but an actual human using a wide range of spells, your theory of comparison is weak at best. I trust Kingsisle isn't in the business of making the weaker player in the equation even weaker, think about it lol..
So in a horrible imaginary pvp scenario constructed by you (the expierienced overlord) a level 28 would have access to lvl 48 pets and high damage attacks but the level 25 fighting against them would not... Do you even think about your propositions before you throw them out?
Sounds to me like this avid player/overlord mid level would like to retain his powerful side deck in an attempt to prevent some one three levels less in an even match from using the same TC. That right there is a testament to your qualifications on the subject and renders your opinion distunctional in my eyes.
@Mayfair, thanks for the great post. The gap could be larger than 10 possibly, though I think 20 is a bit much. While I agree that an adept should be able to stop triton probably, I am not so sure about the level five stopping bracken or flamezilla. And I agree 100% that the restriction should apply to pet cards as well. After all, other types of gear, including crown gear, have cards that reflect their level of use. The stickiest issue I see right now are the new level five spells that can be gotten as a drop by any level in mooshu. KI would have to come up with a pretty creative solution there, but I think they are up to the task.
It does make sense to restrict some of things at the moment arent restricted, as i have a death who uses skeletal dragon in most matches. I hate to win this way, but it is really the only chance i have against people who incredibly high tc. pvp isnt really player vs player if the match is just who can defend and use the crazy high damaging spell first.
@Mayfair, thanks for the great post. The gap could be larger than 10 possibly, though I think 20 is a bit much.While I agree that an adept should be able to stop triton probably, I am not so sure about the level five stopping bracken or flamezilla. And I agree 100% that the restriction should apply to pet cards as well. After all, other types of gear, including crown gear, have cards that reflect their level of use. The stickiest issue I see right now are the new level five spells that can be gotten as a drop by any level in mooshu. KI would have to come up with a pretty creative solution there, but I think they are up to the task.
Making cards gift card and other pets unusable to lower levels?having hoard packs half greyed out for the majority of people playing under the cap? Spell Limiting the weaker character in a pvp matchup?...
Thankfully the people at kingsisle think of consequences when making major changes to game mechanics. This is just financially and structurally a poor idea for KI to even think about.
I've seen Warlords at every level in this game, This would be impossible if TC's could not be defended against. This is a tired complaint for unmotivated players who intentionally use under level characters but can't stand up with the challenges that come with that.
With proper pet Training, gear selection, defensive deck build and strategizing the damage from higher spells can be greatly diminished. When you start restricting and drawing lines between what characters can and can not use according to level the game starts to break.
Something for you to think about Firestarter.. Pet training, side deck prep, crown gear, these are all things people spend crowns on to ready themselves for a pvp match. Do you think It's a good decision for a company to restrict their revenue by making it not necessary to spend any money preparing for pvp for the purpose of unbalancing it?
Discussions with Avid PvP players? Is that a joke?
In all due seriousness, have any of you done the math? Think of low level PvP for a minute. Now, think of the Treasure cards that would be allowed for low level PVP, then think of the healing cards that would be allowed for low level PvP. It would be impossible to defeat a low level wizard.
Then you would have to take out pets as well. I don't think this was a very long or thorough discussion, because you have missed all the facts.
Lowering the level of the treasure cards and taking out pet spells would make them invincible? darthjt, you're awesome and helpful, but this doesn't make much sense.
Well, thank you. :D
It means that at low levels, you could never do enough damage to take out your opponent if there were such restrictions. You could heal through any damage that your enemy could throw at you without treasure cards or higher ranked attacks.
@Firestarter75 , Thank you for your original post. While treasure cards have always played a part of low level dueling, I never thought it would sink to this level. It makes the old Bolt days look appealing.
I agree that a level 5 may have problems shielding against a Kraken or FlameZilla, but that's where level and training point selection should come into play. A level 5 who advances in rank will quickly face level 12’s, which is where Krakens and FlameZillas would come into play under a 10 level limit. Looking back at the notes I kept when the ELO system was first introduced, my level 8 faced a level 12 at 537 rank. At level 5, you have limited yourself to dueling without any shields except treasures. That is the risk/challenge of level 5. If the dueler is having problems advancing in rank then leveling their character to 8 for shields would be a viable choice.
Those new spells do create a sticky situation. Not even sure what level they would be. The 5 pip damage spells have a huge level gap depending on school. For example, Skeletal Pirate is a level 22 spell and Stormzilla is a level 42. Even narrowing the spell range by World is tricky. My latest balance entered MS at level 26. It does look like KI thought of this problem when they introduced the newer spells (ice, storm, death) since they can only be crafted by Legendary Artisans. I may be eating my words when the next horde pack comes out, but hope not.
@Travis, I made the correlation between PvP AND PvE because the two are not separate. Any changes to treasures, aside from making them No PvP, will affect those who PvE exclusively. Sounds like you take issue with the ELO matching system which currently interchanges skill with level. I suggest you start a thread about that issue instead of using it as an excuse why another broken system should not be fixed.
I never said PvP was anything like fighting the Kraken. I’m trying to think on the other side of the fence, not as a PvPer, but as a PvEer as well. If my brother received a treasure card from questing that he could not use for another 10 levels he would be upset. Ask why the game would give him something he could not use. I am trying to take what KI has already established in PvE as a guide for the level restriction of treasures in PvP. The fact that you could take my comment about when we receive dropped treasure cards in PvE and twist it to fighting a boss in PvE is like dueling is a stretch, quite an imagination on you.
As for a level 28 would have better access to spells and treasures than a level 25 is reasonable, KI wants us to level. At level 28 you have better spells than 25 and at 30 you can buy better gear. Nothing changes. Spells and gear ARE currently level restricted, in case you haven’t noticed.
As for my “Overlord-ness” not wanting those 3 levels below me to have the same options? Honestly, why would I care. The matching system is so messed up I would never be fighting anyone at my rank and level. I even tested it with my two accounts. Both exactly the same level and within 50 rank points of each other, they never once matched up. I end up spending my time fighting much higher levels who legimately have access to these spells. I’m getting hit with them one way or another. What I am fighting for is those who do not have my rank or gear so they are able to learn how to duel without being crushed by someone who feels they NEED these treasures because they lack either level or experience.
Yes experience, I went there. When I first started low level dueling, I threw out every single OP treasure card I could get my hands on and won most of the time. As I progressed I noticed things about the matches, such as the tempo and also learned how to anticipate attacks. As I grew more experienced, I needed those treasures less and less. 8 wizards later, I would never dream of using an OP treasure attack, and I still win most of the time, in fact more since I am able to better conserve my pips.
I find it strange how emotional you are getting over this. Firestarter and I and trying to have a logical discussion and we disagree. What we aren’t doing is insulting the other. I get it, you don’t want to lose your beloved treasures, but tone it down.
@Travis, where did I say to disallow pets? Where did I say to disallow crown gear? These are things you are making up out of thin air. And sorry if you are using crowns to get treasure cards, someone should have told you they are available in the bazaar.
You keep ranting that people can't kill each other without op treasure cards. That is simply not true, people kill each other all the time using their rank three and four spells. I personally have taken five different schools to warlord at low levels without even using damage enchantments on my own spells. And there are many players out there better than I. Maybe you have trouble winning matches without these cards, but don't assume your experience applies to everyone.
@Travis, where did I say to disallow pets? Where did I say to disallow crown gear? These are things you are making up out of thin air. And sorry if you are using crowns to get treasure cards, someone should have told you they are available in the bazaar.
You keep ranting that people can't kill each other without op treasure cards. That is simply not true, people kill each other all the time using their rank three and four spells. I personally have taken five different schools to warlord at low levels without even using damage enchantments on my own spells. And there are many players out there better than I. Maybe you have trouble winning matches without these cards, but don't assume your experience applies to everyone.
Ah yes, you are playing against people that do not know any better. People that don't have resistances, people that are not true Warlords. You are probably a low rank yourself.
I can prove how wrong you are too, because, in a match, I would never even have to cast a spell at you and you could never defeat me. That would entirely prove your statements as false. It's not rocket science, it's simple mathematics.
If a person knows how to heal and when to heal, you can't kill them at a lower level with your so called same rank attacks without enchantments, it's just not possible. Now, when you get to level 28 or so, then it does become possible, as there are then X pip attacks and feints, but before that, without treasure cards, no it is not possible.
One more thing, just because you say you can, what makes it your right to say that others can't do something? Or is it the fact, that you can't defeat the real warlords that have the resistance and use these treasure cards, so you have to complain about them?
Sorry, but losing is not a reason or an excuse, it should be a lesson and you should learn from it.
One more thing, just because you say you can, what makes it your right to say that others can't do something? Or is it the fact, that you can't defeat the real warlords that have the resistance and use these treasure cards, so you have to complain about them?
Sorry, but losing is not a reason or an excuse, it should be a lesson and you should learn from it.
