Hmm, I thought about this but cannot tell anymore where I would stand. It is a great idea to cap treasure cards so that only those at the appropriate level can use such cards. But there is too the other issue of level 20 warlords being paired up in arena against level 60.
If perhaps giving personal experiences might help flesh things out I guess revealing match history might help:
When I started out in PvP, i used to use many treasures. Mainly spells like absorb and sometimes but rarely an out of school attack. I used towers and spells like black mantle. Over time, as I learned new spells and understood the game better I used less and less treasures. I reached a point as a myth where I didn't need them for a time. I made it to warlord before celestia without treasures. When celestia came out, i went back to using treasures but because my main deck was so well balanced. I severely limited my treasure usage so that I can continue to play tight matches.
There are some strategies that I use that require treasures because I can only have such a limited number of spells in my deck and because I can only use certain spells that are only usable as treasure for me. These spells are black mantle (one of my favorite pip building methods) and Ninja Pig!
My philosophy on spells like Feint, which balance wizards do a lot of on me if they are a judgement player, is to punish their feint with a ninja pig. And its a classic of mine I wouldn't be able to have access to if treasures were to be blocked. Is it cheating? I wouldn't say so. Its a counter strategy of mine. Its just my way of answering back, taking advantage of an opponents brave attempt to hit me big. I definitely cleanse myself of feint as well. But that's never a treasure.
I recently fought a fire warlord whose rank was 1244, in practice. In practice I never use treasures. But he certainly used them. i lasted a pretty good time. I was going second but was unable to close the deal none the less. I predicted his movements so well. He used treasures like doom and gloom and myth dispels.
I've learned how to play solid tight games without treasures and would love to fight others who don't use them to see how I hold out. But I'm still not entirely against treasures as I see the strategic methods used by some who do use them. Although I admit I hate it when players abuse them.
If I were to say no to treasures it would be under these conditions, see if you like this:
The spells that players can train in secondary, change them up so that when a player makes a wizard, they have access mainly to support spells from secondary schools and not some of the heavy attacks!
So instead of me spending training points up to say Hydra(which I wouldn't) switch that hydra for black mantle(which I would train!)
Instead of stormzilla, put in place a cleanse charm. If the training points worked in that way, which would also force early players to learn to attack mainly with their own schools spells, I would definitely never bother with treasures again. Oh and of course, let me learn Ninja pig :p
Right now, ranked PVP is all about who has the best gadgets: I.e. the best gear, best pet, best treasures, best tricks.
it would be nice if ranked was about who has the best SKILL
But to do that, all the tricks and gadgets need to be eliminated from ranked and players need to be matched up based ONLY on level.
I don't get it. Why is everyone saying removing treasure cards add more SKILL. Treasure cards, or no treasure cards, there is no skill, all you're doing is clicking a button... (if your LUCKY enough to get the right cards)
In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle. The arguments against my proposition will likely be something like this:
"It's totally fair, and maybe you should be using treasure cards as well. If it's in the game why not use it?"
To this I say you are correct, and I do use treasure cards in PvP, and if I didn't, I'd likely lose most my battles. The bottom line is that treasure cards aren't necessarily needed in ranked PvP, and it would serve the arena better without them altogether.
"They allow players to remain unpredictable, and this change would make PvP boring."
There is nothing unpredictable about a level 12 wizard facing off in a ranked PvP match against Talos. Chalking such an imbalance up to maintaining unpredictability is a stretch, and I doubt it's what developers intended.
The reasons why PvP would be better without treasure cards:
* It will balance the battles in the arena. * More wizards will be inclined to play PvP.
Ranked arena matches will become more competitive than ever before with this change. Please post below if you support this idea, and I'm also interested in those opposed to my idea. Lastly, I'd like to know if a suggestion similar to this has already been considered, and/ or responded to by a member of staff in the past.
Anyway thanks for taking the time to read this post.
If there weren't any treasure cards in ranked pvp, then you'd have to be the top level to ever get to warlord. Ever think of that? Treasure cards are actually important in ranked pvp, being unpredictable is good, it's strategy. People use treasure cards in ranked pvp because they sometimes need it. It's important and makes pvp more fun. Also, how would you use garged up spells? They would be blocked from the match, so you just wasted a card?
By how you are saying this, you seem like you have never even set foot in a ranked match. Have you? If you are a level 5 and you are a Private, you won't be paired up with a snobbish legendary. You'll likely be paired up with someone that's also level 5, or, if one is not available, they pair you up with someone that is just a tiny bit lower or higher level than you, or make you sit there and wait until a appropriated leveled person walks by. Fighting with a level 5 is such a big difference with fighting a legendary.
You will only be paired up with a grandmaster or something similar when you are a higher RANK, not level. If you are a level 5 private, as I said before, you will be paired up with a level 5 or similar. If you are a level 5 warlord, you can be likely paired up with a private legendary. Adding treasure cards to ranked pvp is not "important" and "makes pvp fun" but it makes more sense to say that treasure cards, especially the ones that are extremely high leveled, is only to display how much a coward and undependable person the user is. Wow, spamming people with dispel and infection treasures and beating the stuffing out of them with treasures not even your level is so fun and fair!
I had posted this in a thread about "No Chivalry In PvP", but I had not seen this thread and it is even more relevant here... Apologies if anyone ends up seeing it twice. :)
First off I will say I am not I big PvPer, so my experience is limited. My first Wizard was Death and when he was in the high teens and low twenties I did some Arena Dueling. About half the time it would be a "good" duel and about half the time the person I was dueling woudl whip out some crazy high level spell. At first I could not figure out how they were doing it. Then I learned about Treasure Cards. I stopped dueling because I could not fathom spending that much Gold on buying Treasure Cards to use in the Arena. Gold. ROFL. Now that my Death Wizard is in the mid-50's I have Gold coming out of my ears and it woudl be no problem to buy TC and pass them over to my other lower level Wizards or to low level friends so they could be over powered in the Arena. I don't because it just seems wrong and spoils what the Arena seems like it should be.
There would seem to be an extremely simple answer. Consider using Treasure Cards in the Sport of Dueling to be like using steroids or other performance enhancers and just ban them. Dueling each other in the Arena should be about what we can do as Wizards ourselves, not what some High Level Friend/Patron can fill our sideboard with. Maybe allow TC's which you can cast normally, but not anything which you do not have normal access to. It puts new players who do not have High Level Alts or Friends at a tremendous and unfair disadvantage. It is also one which I do not think an actual Sport would allow in its regulations.
Here is another idea... What about two kinds of Duels?
In a "Normal" duel you would not be able to Treasure Cards or your normal Gear. There would be a standard collection of "Arena Gear" of various levels you could choose from which was all "No Sell, No Trade, Arena Only". The "No TC" aspects could be easily addressed by just having the "Arena Decks" have a sideboard of 0. This makes it all about your skill as a Wizard not the size of your bankroll.
An "Unlimited" duel woudl be just that... anything goes. Equipment, Treasure Cards, etc... Unless you have deep pockets yourself or have a Patron you would be best advised to stay away.
In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle. The arguments against my proposition will likely be something like this:
"It's totally fair, and maybe you should be using treasure cards as well. If it's in the game why not use it?"
To this I say you are correct, and I do use treasure cards in PvP, and if I didn't, I'd likely lose most my battles. The bottom line is that treasure cards aren't necessarily needed in ranked PvP, and it would serve the arena better without them altogether.
"They allow players to remain unpredictable, and this change would make PvP boring."
There is nothing unpredictable about a level 12 wizard facing off in a ranked PvP match against Talos. Chalking such an imbalance up to maintaining unpredictability is a stretch, and I doubt it's what developers intended.
The reasons why PvP would be better without treasure cards:
* It will balance the battles in the arena. * More wizards will be inclined to play PvP.
Ranked arena matches will become more competitive than ever before with this change. Please post below if you support this idea, and I'm also interested in those opposed to my idea. Lastly, I'd like to know if a suggestion similar to this has already been considered, and/ or responded to by a member of staff in the past.
Anyway thanks for taking the time to read this post.
No answer will fall to everyone's choice of PvP. So, I think there should be different styles to play: No gear No treasure cards No pets
and just more styles to go on with and also freestyle. Maybe you can even call those restrictions?
Here is what everyone is saying and yet no one gets it Treasures are a nuisance
People say "I do it for warlord" What does warlord do for you? -Wastes money -Gives armor which you can't use -Gives pets that give cards you get at level 15
Also treasures do nothing for PvP They were meant to be used in Quests Now THATS the reason why they put it in the PvP tutorial
People say"If you can't beat them, join them" Well that makes you a spammer and soon someone who people hate
Here is what everyone is saying and yet no one gets it Treasures are a nuisance
People say "I do it for warlord" What does warlord do for you? -Wastes money -Gives armor which you can't use -Gives pets that give cards you get at level 15
Also treasures do nothing for PvP They were meant to be used in Quests Now THATS the reason why they put it in the PvP tutorial
People say"If you can't beat them, join them" Well that makes you a spammer and soon someone who people hate
In addition to giving you those three things, Warlord can also give you: -Recognition in the Arena -Intricate trophies to put in your home -A nice looking badge -Pets like Bronze Helephant, Myth Imp, and Storm Elf, that give cards otherwise unavailable (Bronze Helephant, Myth Imp, amd Lightning Elf, respectively) -Armor that grants balanced stats, and can be used for stitching to make you look like a knight in shining armor! By all means, do not spend money you can get back by farming and questing on this obviously wasteful endeavour! Sorry for the sarcastic outburst, now down to business. If Treasure Cards were not meant for PvP, the game would have made it impossile to use them in the Arena. Treasure Cards don't make you a spammer, that's only if you were to chain Tempest or Judgement or Weakness or whatnot, and these can be defended against most easily. No offense, but it sounds an awful lot like you have lost many a duel to Wizards carrying Treasure Cards. Carry some of your own, then you can have a more sturdy defense.. To the original poster: I do not see how removing a legitimate part of the game from a mode of entertainment used by many players would encourage others to start PvPing. Sorry, but I disagree. Treasure Cards should remain. I don't want to force my opinion on anyone, i'm just saying what I think.
travisAk wrote: 3) All schools are not equal! Treasure cards help schools overcome their weaknesses.
Mega Wrote:I totally disagree with you, The schools are all equal, and there are many trainable spells that support a schools weakness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I as a life likes to 1v1 sometimes. Since I'm level 40, I usually go against other level 40 with common pvp styles. I can show how life is weakened if treasures were removed from pvp.
Balance: Spamming Spirit or Elemental shields. I have to result to shatter because we dont have life elf. Also, treasure towers because they build up pips for judgement & some times tower just isnt enough.
Ice: Same as balance
Fire (sometimes ice) : Their overtime damage spells are very painfull even with shields. So triage can be a life saver. Also, they have damage bubbles, i farmed some brown spiders for a life damage bubble.
Myth: With earthquake, you have to carry a emergency shield in the treasure deck
Death: Absorb is basicaly detroyed due to attack-heal spells. Death shields will be destroyed with Poison. The only way to avoid this is traige and emergency treasure shields.
I'm rather surprised no one has duggested this yet in this thread, perhaps it's suggested elsewhere and I just haven't seen it, but there's a pretty simple solution to this:
Create another Rank PvP, call it Purist Rank or something along those lines, and limit it to no treasure cards. It can have it's own set of Purist Rank Badges.
The only problem is, I'm not sure KI would do this. For one, while there are moment of "He (or She) with the most Gold in Treasure Cards Wins!" in PvP, and those can be frustrating, I think PvP without them would be pretty lopsided without them under the current match making algorithms. Lower Level/High Rank players would have a heck of a harder time going up against High Level Privates.
Secondly, would it really be in their interest? They make money from Subscriptions, but from Crown sales too (ie., Treasure Card Packs). If the Purist Rank PvP actually came to dominate the scene (I doubt it would for the flaws stated above), it might negatively affect their Crown sales.
Here's a solution that's completely fair. Add a check box to the Create A Match dialog screen that enables or disables the Draw button when you go into the match. If either player has this checked, neither player is able to use treasure cards. If both players want the option to use their treasure cards, they leave the checkbox unchecked and everybody is happy.
The whole argument about a level 12 player never winning is a joke. My level 5 get's matched with them all the time and they seem to do pretty well even if they don't use treasures.
Making the use of treasures a choice would certainly go a long way to balance the playing field. The checkbox allows everybody to have more of a say in what they have to face in the match. And it would make PvP more fun. Who wants to go into a match that you really have no chance of winning? Where's the fun in that? And if it's not fun, then from a business perspective, Wizard 101 has no longevity. PvP is the one part of the game that could keep people playing/paying even after they reach the top level.
I'm just gonna say this once. I agree with megan 100%. Level 18 Death wizard and i'm going up against level 5's who can one shot me. Doest that seem fair at all!? and it would show actual skill vs, "oh i have friends who buy and make my treasures for me."
I want to know why so many people use them anyways.
Another thing (agreeing with megan on this again) Is that if you want to be more diverse, use spells out of your school. Heck get the school mastery amulets. I know if i had one it would be easier to use my ice spells.
One last thing, has anyone mentioned the legend pets on level 5 wizards? anyone else notice how unfair that is. I cant get a death legend pet for my wizard. If anything redesign the PVP system again, or put a level cap on pets.
I live for the day that pvp in W101 actually comes down to skill/strategy/deck crafting. Treasure cards should be taken out of pvp. Its logical to reason that they intended for us to use our class' spells specifically to gain unique strategies over other classes and/or builds- this is why they have classes in the first place, right?
Treasure cards take that idea, and throw it out the window; anybody can use anything. As of right now its a fragile system that rewards those that reward KI. I dont mean for this post to bleed on to the subject of crowns gear in ranked as thats another story entirely xD
But I for one would love to see rank reflect skill, not sideboard.
I agree with trvisAK 100% only those that LOSE a lot at pvp are the ones who complain.
Wow, I've not posted in this thread in a long while, and I apologize for not following up. I've changed my perspective on treasure card use in the PvP arena. I do think treasure cards should be allowed in the arena, but I also think they should be level capped. For example:
A level 10 death wizard can use a treasure card version of 'Banshee', but not a treasure card version of 'Wraith'.
This would prevent low level wizards from using spells intended for high level play in the arena setting. Obviously treasure cards should not be level capped while questing.
If KI did anything with TC's, it would limit them to levels. Imagine how long a battle would take without any TC blades or self-damage imflicting spells for fients. To gnome an ice, I usually need atleast an extra single blade or a fient :-)
Luke Lifesword, Warlord (So close to Overlord (^^)
The problem is, without treasure cards, a level 12 wizard would never be able to kill another wizard... With the amount of cards to heals is the deck, then also no having reshuffle any longer, the only way to win a match at that level, is to never play your last card...
Then how would that be fair when these low levels are having to face Legendaries now?
ok the way i see it if a legend is facing a lvl 12 something is wrong and there are more problems then just treasures in pvp. And face the facts even with treasures do you really believe a 12 would beat a legendary or trancended more easily? Yes it would be easier, but c'mon now that means the legend can use treasures if they wanted.
In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle
and then this.. [
XxMEGAxX wrote:
I've changed my perspective on treasure card use in the PvP arena. I do think treasure cards should be allowed in the arena, but I also think they should be level capped.This would prevent low level wizards from using spells intended for high level play
what changed your mind?
Let me see if I am understanding this correcty...
You used to hate treasure cards because you lost a few mathes to people who use them, even though you could use them too. So you wanted them removed from pvp.
After realizing they can be useful to you your perspective changes. You now think you should be able to use high level treasure cards but a lower level with a health disadvantage fighting against you should be confined to weaker side deck spells? This is the equivalent of asking for your smaller boxing opponent, who has a shorter reach, to tie one arm behind his back. Are you for real?
It's human nature for people to reach for things to blame when they fail when really they only have theirselves to account for it. "The guy who beat me used a minion, so that is unfair..." "I would have won if you didn't heal so much you healing noob" "you wouldn't have won without that pet, take pets out of pvp" the list goes on.....
Sounds like you have a grudge against low level players to me. The Game is what it is, Focus on your own side deck, learn what went wrong. the next time you lose and adjust your play to counter that scenario. If you can't properly shield and de-buff the lower levels that haunt you what makes you think you can do it against a similar skilled individual your same level? The difference here is that people your own level are easier for you to beat due to less experience.
The problem here isn't treasure cards or levels, it sounds like there are more holes in your strategy than a golf course designed by Tiger Woods. lower levels have half as many cards as you do, play more defensively when you run into one, Turtle up and run them low on cards. Find which schools beat you up the most and pile shields In your deck accordingly. When you get knocked down ask yourself " hey what can I do to stop this from happening again?"
Most people only have one way of fighting with their school and don't take time to anticipate their opponent. Your strategy must be fluid and constantly changing, you have to learn how to switch gears and adjust your fighting style based on the different schools and level of your opponent. Good luck
3) All schools are not equal! Treasure cards help schools overcome their weaknesses.
I totally disagree with you, The schools are all equal, and there are many trainable spells that support a schools weakness.
i think what he meant is that each school has an area in which it is terrible at. treasure cards make up for it. ice would be extremely weak without treaasures like gargantuan in pvp, just because they didnty know about it and that they arent willing to pay 15$ or more to repurchase their training points doesnt mean they dont deserve not to use it. i do agree that lvl limits should be put on some ( not all ) treasure cards, like insane bolt.
Lets start this by squashing some foolishness. How do treasure cards make KI money? How?
Anyone?.... Here i shall answer for you... They dont. (Gasp! ) they can be farmed or bought with in game gold. To top it off i have yet to see a treasure card that requires crowns to purchase... *cough cough* debunked! *cough cough*. So to take them out of PvP it would NOT hinder there their weekly net pay.
Ah with that out of the way we can focus on the topic at hand.
Shall we?
Ranked PvP should be left to skill with a hint of luck. Cramming your sidebord full of tower shields heals or any other spell for that matter is NOT skill. It is called Stacking your deck..... Any card player can tell you this... its not a secret. 8)
Now before anyone gets the wrong idea here. Let me make this clear... I do not use treasure cards in ranked unranked or pve... They are cheep crutches ment for those that dont know how to properly play their school or secondary for that matter.
However for the sake of argument and to keep those of us who are less skilled intrested in this game and say that when it comes to RANKED PVP treasure cards (all of them) should be band. Leaving the rest of us skilled wizards with a respectable competition and a proper way to gauge power.
I have played many other trading card games and have competed in many tournements and even found myself in second and third place at a few ptq's (pro tour qualifier). So its not like i lack skill or the ability to place. But thats in games that do not promote cheating. Oh and yes that is what that is called. when you can dump a spell from your hand reach into your *pocket and pull what you need when you need it, it is called cheating and is by no means a measure of skill.
) they can be farmed or bought with in game gold. To top it off i have yet to see a treasure card that requires crowns to purchase... *cough cough* debunked! *cough cough*. So to take them out of PvP it would NOT hinder there their weekly net pay.