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This topic is on Level 100 Wizards in PVP, and is not referenced to
any Levels below. This is also only looking at rank 1200 and above,
as the effect is not "as" noticable below that level, imo.

T 1 .
No queston fire an Life are at the top of PVP.

Balance wizards, can also use Morgan's amulet and have one of the
best heals in the game. Since it is "Over time" it can be stolen,
but from first it can be shielded. They have lost a lot with the new
jewels, as Loremaster makes few if anyone fizzle. Still considered
a Teir 1 school, it has dropped to the bottom of the Teir 1 group imo.

Teir 2 Group.

Death is at the top of the Teir 2 school, with the Jewels high
pierce and their drain spells, they can do well.
Add to that they have their own heal that can critical as all
the Teir 1 schools, they are deadly in PvP. I feel that Death
has all the tools to do well in PvP at level 100.

Ice has lost a lot, and maybe too much in the jewel release.
To maintain decent stats they have limited damage.
They have limited Critcal Block, limited Critical, unless they
drop their Life Amulet. If they drop their Life amulet,
they have no way to efficiently heal when in touble.
They almost never critical heal as all the above schools can
do. Even Storm has it's own heal in the game it can critical
on. Ice needs an ICE school heal, and should have already
had one by level 100.

Teir 3 Group.

Storm has gained a lot in the Jewel release, and I'm not sure
they should really be considered in the Teir 3 Group anymore.
The gain of 18 pierce with the peirce gained with the new
gear has made them hard to beat. The increase in Accuracy
has also helped them a great deal. If their heal was more
reliable, I would move them into the top of the Teir 2 group,
without question.

Bottom of the barrow is Myth, limit Critical and Critical
block, as it still has to rely on the Life or Balance
amulet. Limit health, means it is stuck between a rock
and a hard place. The updates have helped Myth the least
of all, for several reason.

Point of this posting......
It is not about what schools are in what Teirs. It is not
about the order of the schools in the Teir.
It is not about what the Leaderboards show right now, as
it is sitll in Flux showing the changes.

This posting is about Ice and Myth getting an unreasonable
short end of the stick.
Myth, as Ice, needs their own school heals, (at Level 100) to
be able to compete fairly in PVP. PvP needs all the help it
can get, as only a fraction now compete compared to a few years
ago.
For any school to complete in PVP at Level 100, it needs to have
an Amulet with Critical and Critical Block. To do this, it needs
it's own school heal.
I think that KI has overlooked this critical flaw, and it needs to
be corrected before the next world comes.

Any that agree or disagree, please post your reasons below.

I agreed. and need their own heals. In a thread called "New Life AoE and Ideas for the other Schools" I have posted a new Ice spell for wizards level 70-85, currently in moderation by the administrators. If you have time go check it out, I feel you'll like it. As for Myth there's a thread called "Myth Changes" also check it out when you have time. Overall and need some boosting. Even if was my first school, and is still my favorite school, Myth needs some love too. And if KI doesn't do something soon I feel , , and will be at the bottom of the barrow, with and at the top. I mean seriously, has been getting defense! DEFENSE! Not hating on the school, just the fact that isn't supposed to have that good defense.

Hope they help and though.

Max Sterling on May 21, 2015 wrote:

I agreed. and need their own heals. In a thread called "New Life AoE and Ideas for the other Schools" I have posted a new Ice spell for wizards level 70-85, currently in moderation by the administrators. If you have time go check it out, I feel you'll like it. As for Myth there's a thread called "Myth Changes" also check it out when you have time. Overall and need some boosting. Even if was my first school, and is still my favorite school, Myth needs some love too. And if KI doesn't do something soon I feel , , and will be at the bottom of the barrow, with and at the top. I mean seriously, has been getting defense! DEFENSE! Not hating on the school, just the fact that isn't supposed to have that good defense.

Hope they help and though.

I agree because ice meant be tank/heavy (not offense school) most more heavy spell (then others school) no angel angel (isn't heavy spell) "light" spell "no word with giant in the spell" doesn't count as real ice spell "Light Heavy" Ice Post be: "Hard Heavy"

wish had spell so, frisk the storm (so, overpower) why everybody hate storm in pvp (already get strong everytime) most school complain about ice (so, would made storm) only help ice/myth lowest best pvp player

but think ice/myth need healing spell (mostly people said to me ice doesn't need healing spell most heath/resist) but said: so, what and pointless use resist/more heath because high armor pierce (resist/more heath more unless anyone shot us in one hit (mostly OHKO hit which that pvp strategies should be banned from pvp/pve clued using shadow shrike

which new need new talent for pvp for only ice/myth

talent I would choice:

healing for myth/ice
immunity resist to armor pierce
dispel shield
shadow magic jade gear (get first shadow magic dispel) also help get be immune to shadow magic

(favorite top healing spell idea for ice wizard making like this this call: healing tower)

it healing tower does: (drain half shield) storm wizard: use ice shield & tower shield (lose half percent of shield) shield to in healing tower on ice wizard (anyone attack) heal them by half heal (I would make this spell immune to infection because it a shield)

What I think needs to be done to fix this problem is one of a couple of things. Ice either needs to be given a heal or given back what Jade took away from it, or both. The thing that Jade took away from Ice was it being the most defensive school in the game. If Ice wants to keep it's name as the tankiest school then it needs some gear that is more defensive than Jade. It doesn't need to be much better. Just a little bit. It doesn't even need a complete set. It might just be a pair of boots available only to Ice that are more defensive than the Jade boots. Or an improved version of the Elissa's Chill Band.
If Ice gets a heal of it's own it doesn't need to be an amazing heal. It only needs to be better than what a life spell could do without a mastery.
Here are some examples of what it could be.
2 Pips
heal 350

2 Pips
heal 400 over three rounds

3 Pips
heal 550

Myth absolutely needs a healing spell. I also have a cool idea for what it might could be.
Example
5 Pips
heal 50+500 to all allies.

The smaller heal + the larger one keeps with the Myth theme of spells such as Minotar and Orthrus. It can remove negative heal traps left by spells such as Lord of Night before healing the larger amount.. Also it being a heal all spell fits right into Myths theme of being a minion schools. This spell will heal you as well as your minion.

Please know that I only mean these as examples of what they could be, not what they should be.

Aaron SpellThief on May 21, 2015 wrote:

When facing balance, sure, snow drift is great and all, but ice's offensive spells don't really have enough utility to take down balances consistently anyway. Against all other schools, ice is at a huge disadvantage. Ice's stats are sub-par, its spells are sub-par, and it has been getting constantly nerfed since Avalon when people complained constantly about its "op" crafted gear. Personally, I think ice and myth should get somewhat more powerful shadow pip heals, as their critical is low enough so that, even with an in-school heal, it might put them behind other schools if the heal didn't have a lot of base healing.

I agree for shadow magic :) for shadow magic heal for

Veracity8 on May 22, 2015 wrote:

Hi PvP King,
I see the current state for Ice at Level 100, a little different than you do. Before Darkmoor and the new fast hit Shadow spells, I will agree, Ice could stand on It’s own. I do not see that as the case today, Ice is taking a beating, especially with Critical hits.
Ice at one time had great resist, that is no longer the case, they are just barely above Balance in resist. Their damage is well below everyone else, sitting at about 50. When a Fire can use Tri-Power, Shadow and FFA to hit for over 5K, Ice quickly gets in trouble. They need time to set up, and they no longer have time in the current pvp.
Snow drift is usually ineffective, as many Balance (as I do) carry Life spells in their side deck. Mine are on Elucidate, but still as soon as I see an Ice, I discard my Availing hands. No sense in giving them a critical heal. Life heals are also nice in the current high damage meta, as our HOT are too slow if we are in real danger. Point is, we can heal against six schools with our own, and carry an excellent Amulet.
The only two schools that worry about Balefrost is Balance and Life, I will agree with that. We have the same problem with Fire, Myth, Death, Ice, and storm. On the other hand, Gaze is perfect when setting up a combo.
I am not saying we need to give Ice a 780 heal, it should be HOT, and should be lower, maybe 500 or 550 for three pips. Either way, they need a decent amulet to be able to play and win and the life or Balance amulet takes too much away. Without it, they can’t block Death, Life, Balance, Fire or Storm often enough to win, even with a good skill set.
I like Ghost stones reply on the heals, those would work too.

make spell (for healing for myth/ice) be more healing spell as earthquake like as with mix of judgement?

PvP King on May 22, 2015 wrote:

Let's compare Ice's stats with a 21% damage, 15% resist pet, 2 95 health jewels, and 18% pierce from jewels compared to Balance (a top tier school) with the full Darkmoor set, Morganthe amulet and Duelist's Daredevil Ring.
Ice:
Health - 6764
Damage - 83%
Resist - 60%
Critical - 55%
Critical block - 54%
Armor pierce - 37%
Pip chance and accuracy can both be increased above 100% due to jewels.

Balance:
Health - 5871
Damage - 104%
Resist: 52%
Critical - 67%
Critical block - 53%
Armor pierce - 44%
Pip chance and accuracy are above 100% without jewels.

Health: Ice is 893 higher.
Damage - Balance is 21% higher.
Resist: Ice is 8% higher
Ice has a 4% chance to critical on Balance.
Balance has a 19% chance to critical on Ice.
Armor pierce: Balance is 7% higher.

Ice still has 50% and 40% and 45% blades in contrary to 25% and 35% 35% blades from Balance, which put Ice above Balance damage-wise. Let's calculate Abominable Weaver's max against Balance's Gaze of Fate, both tripled bladed on each other:
Abominable Weaver: 6747 damage on Balance's resist.
Gaze of Fate: 5370 damage on Ice's resist.

With those numbers given, Ice is able to OHKO any school with just 3 blades and Balance even with 3 blades cannot take Ice out. In fact, there is a 1377 damage difference between the two, and either school could use Shrike to avoid any shields. Simply put, all Ice needs to do is use 3 blades and Shadow Shrike and their enemy is dead. If Ice were to have heals, no matter how small it would be, Ice could just tank until it puts those 3 blades up and will OHKO anybody. Rather than adding extra heals, I think KingsIsle should be looking to add more resist to gear so more people can survive, and then further adding heals in for the less fortunate schools. No school can be fixed at this moment in just one simple fix, PvP is in a deep pit, and it's going to take more than a heal to balance PvP.

First off, on your statement on resist is not needed as much as Critical Block …. Imo. The gear should not limit Critical block as it has, especially for Ice. An early critical shadow spell is often a game ender. It doesn’t matter what skill range you have, if a storm or fire hit you with a critical shadow on the first round.
Once you start adding resist, you end up with players crafting rings for immunity, and we are right back into the Jade era.
In the defense of Ice, let me add this.
Let's compare Ice's stats that are more typical:
Health - 6423
Damage - 67%
Resist - 57%
Critical - 53% (307)
Critical block - 49% (245)
Armor pierce - 11%
Pip chance and accuracy can both be increased above 100%.

Balance:
Health - 6005
Damage - 95%
Resist: 50%
Critical - 399
Critical block - 289
Armor pierce - 38%
Pip chance and accuracy are above 100% without jewels.
Actually, Ice is down at 97 % pip chance, as I remember.
The above two wizards, are my wizards stats, as they are today (with Jewel values removed) at Level 100.
Health: Ice is 418 higher. (not much at all).
Damage - Balance is 28% higher.
Resist: Ice is 7% higher
Ice has almost a zero chance to critical on Balance.
Balance has almost a 25% chance to critical on Ice.
Armor pierce: Balance is 27% higher.

Now recalculate the values for Weaver and Gaze, and you can see how weak Ice really is. The key is to remember that Balance has an average of 100 dpp while Ice is down close to 85 dpp. Plus it should be noted that other schools also have +40 blades.
continued in next posting....

Veracity8 on May 23, 2015 wrote:

First off, on your statement on resist is not needed as much as Critical Block …. Imo. The gear should not limit Critical block as it has, especially for Ice. An early critical shadow spell is often a game ender. It doesn’t matter what skill range you have, if a storm or fire hit you with a critical shadow on the first round.
Once you start adding resist, you end up with players crafting rings for immunity, and we are right back into the Jade era.
In the defense of Ice, let me add this.
Let's compare Ice's stats that are more typical:
Health - 6423
Damage - 67%
Resist - 57%
Critical - 53% (307)
Critical block - 49% (245)
Armor pierce - 11%
Pip chance and accuracy can both be increased above 100%.

Balance:
Health - 6005
Damage - 95%
Resist: 50%
Critical - 399
Critical block - 289
Armor pierce - 38%
Pip chance and accuracy are above 100% without jewels.
Actually, Ice is down at 97 % pip chance, as I remember.
The above two wizards, are my wizards stats, as they are today (with Jewel values removed) at Level 100.
Health: Ice is 418 higher. (not much at all).
Damage - Balance is 28% higher.
Resist: Ice is 7% higher
Ice has almost a zero chance to critical on Balance.
Balance has almost a 25% chance to critical on Ice.
Armor pierce: Balance is 27% higher.

Now recalculate the values for Weaver and Gaze, and you can see how weak Ice really is. The key is to remember that Balance has an average of 100 dpp while Ice is down close to 85 dpp. Plus it should be noted that other schools also have +40 blades.
continued in next posting....

Why would you compare "average" stats of each school? If it's not the best stats, then of course you're losing, and that's entirely the wizard's fault, not the school's

Ice could easily switch to the Teeth of The Lord's Night for an increased block rating at the cost of 5% pierce, which isn't much to lose anyway. With that, Ice has a much more solid chance to critical block a Balance wizard, and can continue with its triple blade Weaver Shrike strategy.

Once you start adding resist to pre-existing gear, of course there will be Jade. The main solution to that problem is to increase the "normal" resist range to around 70/80% in future gear and keep armor pierce as it is. With that, people will have 30-40% resist on each other, varying per school, and can finally have a balanced meta.

As to your argument with Gaze of Fate being a double hit and harder to shield, it is also a spell that can be completely nullified to nothing with the use of a Weakness and Weakness TC combined, which is very common in Exalted PvP. Let's also compare each hit above with Shrike on and Weaver hitting into a 70% shield an Gaze hitting into a 50% Tower Shield:
Abominable Weaver - 6307 damage
Gaze of Fate - 6473 damage

Ice's attack is still enough to take down a Balance wizard even if a 70% Ice shield (which close to nobody has trained) while Balance can't knock out an Ice wizard with a triple blade and shrike with Gaze of Fate into a minor 50% Tower Shield. Ice is still dominant in this and would still be too overpowered due to its stacking ability if it had a heal, until KI fixes the whole massive damage issue.

I agree that Myth definitely needs some love at high level. They need a reliable way to mitigate damage. Personally, I think they should be able to reflect some damage back at their opponents. A heal would also fill this void.

However, I don't think that Ice needs a heal. Ice has been a high-tier school from the start. High HP, lots of damage mitigation with Frozen/Ice Armor, and a Shadow Pip spell that can be effectively used from either first OR second in a 1v1. They also get that really good block/ice damage wand from the Christmas pack. Finally, they get the best non-jade resist in the game. If they need more resist, they can use Fortify.

Ice is made to be played as a medium-tempo ramp build, in which you control the match to a point where you have complete domination over all the variables. (ex: bubble, traps, pip advantage, etc.) A heal would ruin Ice's tempo and make them even more powerful than they are now.

On the other hand, I definitely think Snow Drift could use some love. For example, why not make it trigger when your opponent casts a heal over time? You could put it down as a trap, and your opponent could remove it with Cleanse Ward. That would make Snow Drift more useful from second!

Veracity8 on May 26, 2015 wrote:

When I compare average stats, I do so because I can’t get any good jewels. It’s so random, that some may never get the pierce jewels, even after years of trying. I have been crafting and running dungeons for months trying to get a drop, and nothing. So comparing anything but average would seem unfair to me.
Teeth of Lords Night is a crown item, not something that I can afford, well maybe in a few years I could. So crown items are not an option for many, so I need to stay with drops that I can get. KI says the game is not limited to crowns, that you should be able to play without crowns. So, it should be made so I can get my Ice’s critical block up to a reasonable value. An Ice heal would allow that, and it makes sense that Myth and Ice should have their own heal. Even if some other Wizard could steal it.

So Balance and Ice both have about the same stats,

1. health (Ice has slight edge), 2. Same damage (if Ice blades, so it loses rounds), 3. Same resist, (Ice has slight edge with 10 more). 4. Critical block, advantage Balance. 5. Critical, advantage Balance. 6. Pierce, advantage Balance…. And not to mention Fire is dominating both schools right now.

Balance is in the top Tier. Ice is at the bottom of the second Tier, even if it can one hit Balance with Blades. The point is that Balance has better spells, and can Critical it’s heals. Ice cannot do this, even with it’s 600 extra health. Ice cannot compete with Balance, Life or Fire, and has a hard time with Death. Pierce Jewels have compounded the problem, as Ice no longer has the one advantage that it had, resist. Take a weak school without heals, and you got a school that loses in PVP. Why is Life so good, they have better heals that any other school, and excellent damage.

When you compare some undeveloped stats, you can't say that an addition to that wouldn't be overpowered, because you're not looking at the best gear. If Ice, with the best gear, which many Ice wizards have, were to get an Ice heal, then Ice would indeed be overpowered. You can't just ignore a possibility in the game, as it causes a great unbalance in PvP (as previously seen with Ice's dominant resist to Fire and Storm, as well as Jade gear in its early days).

Ice's goal, in the top level meta, is to survive long enough to execute its stacked and pierced attack. Often this is executed before the Ice wizard is taken out, and if the Ice wizard is good, this strategy will work more than just the majority of the time. A heal will make Ice even more capable of doing this, as I said, with the low possibility that anybody will survive Ice's stacked and Shriked attack. A solution that I would find more suitable would be a newer form of mastery amulets, as I've mentioned in this thread:
https://www.wizard101.com/forum/player-vs-player/make-mastery-amulets-more-rewarding-8ad6a4154be412b9014be722d13216d6?page=1

The problem with that however, is once again stacking and OHKO'ing your opponent. We need more blade stack removing tools and resist before KI decides to add more heals, or else Exalted will be a OHKO fest, even worse than it already is.

PvP King on May 26, 2015 wrote:

When you compare some undeveloped stats, you can't say that an addition to that wouldn't be overpowered, because you're not looking at the best gear. If Ice, with the best gear, which many Ice wizards have, were to get an Ice heal, then Ice would indeed be overpowered. You can't just ignore a possibility in the game, as it causes a great unbalance in PvP (as previously seen with Ice's dominant resist to Fire and Storm, as well as Jade gear in its early days).

Ice's goal, in the top level meta, is to survive long enough to execute its stacked and pierced attack. Often this is executed before the Ice wizard is taken out, and if the Ice wizard is good, this strategy will work more than just the majority of the time. A heal will make Ice even more capable of doing this, as I said, with the low possibility that anybody will survive Ice's stacked and Shriked attack. A solution that I would find more suitable would be a newer form of mastery amulets, as I've mentioned in this thread:
https://www.wizard101.com/forum/player-vs-player/make-mastery-amulets-more-rewarding-8ad6a4154be412b9014be722d13216d6?page=1

The problem with that however, is once again stacking and OHKO'ing your opponent. We need more blade stack removing tools and resist before KI decides to add more heals, or else Exalted will be a OHKO fest, even worse than it already is.

PvPKing,
I agree on the OHKO feast, as that is what PVP has become, except for Balance. Balance is the only school that still can run a control deck. I cannot see PvP changing, and I feel that as things are, PvP has become skill-less. A warlord is a meaningless title now, as I see it, maybe even Win/loss ratio mean nothing.
I still do not think my Ice or Balance stats are underdeveloped. Few have all the Pierce jewels, as least based on what I see. My Balance has all the darkmoor gear, (including the Athame), plus the Ammy from Zafaria. So I consider his stats good, he is just lacking the Pierce jewels, which he may never get. My Ice’s stats also reflect the darkmoor gear, I just don’t have the Athame. He also cannot use the Zafaria Ammy, hence his Critical Block is so low. This has generated real problems when against a Fire, Storm, Balance and in some cases Life and Death. Ice is low in the second tier for a reason.
I like the idea of the Life Ammy with Critic block, critical and 5 or 6 pierce. This would really help Ice and Myth, and without it, they can’t really compete.
Let’s take Life, they can just blade up, heal, and hit (same as Ice). Death, they can blade up, poison and hit with their huge drain spell. Balance can control pips, has a double hit, and has much better stats than Ice, except for Health. Fire has the ability to stack Multiple traps and a huge hit compared to Ice. All the schools (maybe expect maybe Myth), can stack and hit. Ice has no advantage, it also has low critical, low Critical Block, low Pierce, low damage. Ok, so it can stack blades, every school can do that except Balance. Balance doesn’t really need it, if it’s played right.
So, what’s the difference between a Life or Death that can blade stack (and Critical Heal) and an Ice that can Blade Stack, has low critical block, and no critical heal? Anyway, if they decide to go the way of the Amulet, I certainly hope they don’t make it almost impossible to get, like the Jewels.

PvP King on May 27, 2015 wrote:

Yes, I agree that PvP requires little to or even no skill to be competitive, all it takes is getting lucky with your gear and jewels, and then further getting lucky with critical/critical block when you're actually in a PvP. This is the way I see Exalted PvP and it's really turned me away from the game.

Ice, however, is not alone in that its disadvantage is huge against other schools. Every school is disadvantaged once their block rating stops working, or if they simply go second. PvP is so damage based that going second will nearly guarantee you a loss, and I do agree that that guarantee is a lot bigger on Ice wizards. My desire for PvP is that Ice will get a heal in the future, but I want resist rates to go up significantly, up to maybe 70 or 80%, and mastery amulets to give more block rating as I've linked above so we can finally counter the massive armor pierce and critical ratios, and then I want to see heals coming in for Ice and Myth so OHKO strategies won't be as successive. I think that way would allow for a much better balance to PvP than just simply giving heals right off the get go.

PvPKing,

I agree, that is why I dropped back to Level 35 to Level 50 PvP, but even that has been hurt with the Jewel release. KI had a winning game at level 50, and PVP was just fun to play. The Introduction of Jade is when the game started it downward slide. It appears that each and every change since then, as been geared to speed up the matches and an attempt to fix the Jade error. The change to reshuffle, the adding of Pierce in spells and jewels, etc.

Adding Critical Block and Resist would counter exactly what they have done to speed up the game. I don’t see that happening, as they have ignored all suggestions in this area. Even Nick from Duelist101 complained on the lack of Critical Block. They have removed the defensive part of the game, and increased the chance of pure random luck in pvp. That combined with the glitches in the algorithm for critical block, is what is turning me away from the game. When a Fire can attain a Shadow pip and FFA critical on the first round and almost end the match, that is a problem.

Anyway, I agree with your post, it would be a valid way for them to get out of the mess they are in. Other games have got into this type of problem, and have listened to the complaints and changed. PvP over the years has had a huge dropout, I can see that just in the last year. Combine that with the extreme amount of farming for gear and jewels, and it destroys your drive. I’m not sure KI will get the message until a lot of people decide it’s time to quit.

Veracity8 on May 28, 2015 wrote:

PvPKing, cont..

Adding Critical Block and Resist would counter exactly what they have done to speed up the game. I don’t see that happening, as KI seems to have their mind set in this area. Many have complained on the lack of Critical Block over the past few years. They have removed the defensive part of the game, and increased the chance of pure random luck in pvp. When a Fire can attain a Shadow pip and FFA critical on the first round and almost end the match, that is a problem.

Anyway, I agree with your post, it would be a valid way for them to improve PVP. Sadly, PvP over the years has had a huge dropout, I can see that just in the last year. Last year I would normally see 70 to 80 in the PVP 1v1 queue on a Saturday afternoon, now I am lucky to see 45.

That pretty true.

There's are a lot higher wizards doing rank pvp now.