This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
There is a certain point where resistance can hinder your opponent pretty much. For an attack of 100, To counter a resist of 10% you need an attack boost of 13%. And it definitely gets so much worse when resist approaches 40,50, etc. And simply raising the attack power of other schools to counter this, only puts more stress on poor Judgements scales. This is how things became unbalanced more or less. Celestia did bring an interesting idea with gear, to resist the opposites of the element/spirit schools, depending on what you were. I wonder if there could be a better way to work with that style.
Although, I did beat an ice with 53% global resist, surely you must have done something like that too Darth?
Resist affects some schools more than others. I'm sure storm may not have an issue with someone having 40% resist. Even Death has pretty nice attack boosts, and a skeletal dragon that hits for 1000. But others can get left behind. Imagine two ice wizards, with attack boosts of only 43% and resists of 53%. Geez. That's a match that wont be going anywhere fast.
This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
I agree that resist needs to go back to your own school. Ever since Celestia, Storm wizards have been complaining about how hard it is to take out an Ice wizard and that they always lose. And now, Ice keeps on hitting Storm with higher resist and critical block. It's seeming to get annoying and that's why you don't see many Storm wizards roaming around. Also, I created a post (it's not out yet) but it gives the right spells in my opinion and it balances the damage out for each school and even giving the schools that already hit too high to get blades instead of new spells. Storm is falling behind all schools, and spells are getting too strong.
Are you talking about the crafted gear, that every school gets high resist to two other schools? Please detail what you are talking about, so we can debate this, in a civil manner.... ofcourse.
This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
If your talking about the new ice gear in zafaria, almost all the ice wizards i know don't use any of that gear. :?
This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
I understand that all schools are getting insane stats now that they are reaching transcended. I don't believe one can just make an issue with ice's resistance, when all other schools are getting higher resistance also, as well as much higher hit boosts, health boosts. I am not pretending to know all the stats, for the trancended wizards, so please don't think this is an attack on your statements, it is not. It is just a generalization on how all schoolsa re getting boosted., so if one gets adjusted they should all get adjusted based upon the unfairness of the additional boost in their area of uniqueness. Lets take down storm's hit power too while we are at it, etc...
This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
I assume you are talking about the new crafted gear for ice. If so, did you mean fire and storm? Yes, it is true that ice can resist either of those schools at very high levels now. However, they drop their global resistance by 8% (from whatever level they were at) to do so. If either school drops in a prism, ice is now more vulnerable than they previously were. Factor in the new pierce option and ice has really left themselves more vulnerable, not less. If this wasn't what you are referring to, then perhaps you could explain in more detail.
There is a certain point where resistance can hinder your opponent pretty much. For an attack of 100, To counter a resist of 10% you need an attack boost of 13%. And it definitely gets so much worse when resist approaches 40,50, etc. And simply raising the attack power of other schools to counter this, only puts more stress on poor Judgements scales. This is how things became unbalanced more or less. Celestia did bring an interesting idea with gear, to resist the opposites of the element/spirit schools, depending on what you were. I wonder if there could be a better way to work with that style.
True to a point. But remember, we only have to hit kill damage. 30% of a huge number is still a huge damage. Here's a simple scenario... Storm with a gear attack boost of 90%. Storm uses a blade and an item or treasure blade. They hit critical on a leviathan, which is obviously common. If they are striking against an unshielded ice with 70% storm resist who doesn't block critical (also quite likely) it works out like this:
1.9 x 2 x 1.3 x 1.35 x .3 x 1030 = 2060ish damage which will leave a mark.
Modified with "extraordinary" would change it to this:
1.9 x 2 x 1.3 x 1.35 x .45 x 1030 = 3091ish damage which is an even bigger mark.
Modify the scenario slightly by adding in a colossal and a 20% treasure infallible for that extra special pierce effect:
1.9 x 2 x 1.3 x 1.35 x .5 x 1305 = 4351ish damage which is pretty close to or at kill damage.
Throw in a prism (cause the new gear will block everything else at lower amounts) and now you're at:
1.9 x 2 x 1.3 x 1.35 x .71 x 1305 = 6179ish damage which is a confirmed kill.
Imagine for just a minute how much greater the magnitude of damage becomes as you starting going beyond a couple of zero pip blades into traps and treasure blades and pet balance blades or "may cast" storm blade pet attributes. Even small boosts make a HUGE difference as the sheer number of multipliers increase. This is why leviathan and the disarm spell (which I think should be zero pips) are so tactically advantageous for storms (though many of them don't seem to realize it) because the higher the resist, the harder the school has to work in order to generate kill damage. The question quickly changes from what percentage boost do I need to overcome resist to can I possibly throw on enough shields to save myself because shielding works in the opposite direction and there are far more boost options than shield options (particularly when most of them can be removed with a single wand hit) and a 3 pip shatter will drop all of them.
CorbinW wrote:
Resist affects some schools more than others. I'm sure storm may not have an issue with someone having 40% resist. Even Death has pretty nice attack boosts, and a skeletal dragon that hits for 1000. But others can get left behind. Imagine two ice wizards, with attack boosts of only 43% and resists of 53%. Geez. That's a match that wont be going anywhere fast.
Storm can achieve 41% global resist and it only goes up from there. I've been in those ice matches you talk about (though my resist was only 49%) and it went a lot quicker than you would think, about 15 to 20 minutes if I recall correctly. If you aren't inclined to figure out and use one hit kill strategies, it could take a lot longer I suppose.
This resistance to 2 opposite schools at such a high level of resistance is simply put, too overpowered!
I can see overpowered as resisting your own school, since you specialize in that school, but to resist a school you know nothing about?
Point of Fact: Ice can have some outrageous resistance to other schools. It is bad enough that they resist so much to all schools, but to give them increasing factors of resistance to both ice and storm? With the high amount of health Ice gets on top of that?
when cl came out to many people complained that ice had to much resist so they made waterworks gear. and i do like the waterworks gear it helps in pve but not as much as i would like in pvp.
Celestia gear gave resists to 2 schools, If you were death, you got resistance to life and myth. If you were fire, you got resistance to Ice and Storm. Balance got a little bit of Resistance to both elemental and spiritual schools. Ice, got universal resistance.
Then came WaterWorks gear, which just gave universal resistance.
Now comes Zafaria Crafted Gear. Ice gets not only universal resistance, it gets resistance for fire and storm on top of it.
All of the other schools have to lose universal resistance to get the extra resistance to other schools.
These resistance boosts have taken Ice's resistance up to and over 55% depending on your choices. Then, if you have a pet with full spell proof and spell defy, you can easily have 70% resistance or more to Storm and even more resistance to Fire.
Now, Zafaria crafted gear has benefits and draw backs.
Storm loses over 10% damage boost, some accuracy, and healing while gaining more critical points, losing some universal resistance, but gaining resistance to fire and ice.
Fire loses about 6% damage boost, some accuracy, and healing, while gaining more critical points, losing some universal resistance, but gaining some resistance to storm and ice.
Ice loses about 4% damage boost, 1 accuracy, and healing, while gaining more critical points, keeping it's universal resistance and gaining resistance to storm and fire. By far, the gear is best for Ice than any other school.
Myth loses about 6% damage boost, some accuracy, and healing, while gaining more critical points, losing some universal resistance, but gaining some resistance to death and life.
Life, Death, and Balance all lose about 8% damage boost, about 26% power pip chance, and healing, while gaining some accuracy, more critical points, losing some universal resistance, while gaining some resistance to the other spiritual schools. Balance has a choice on spiritual or elemental resistance.
While we are in fact, moving to Transcended, I can understand Universal Resistance! However, I can not see the excessive added resistance to schools outside of your school of focus. You should resist the school you are in, since you have studied it and gained control over it, not gain resistance to schools you know nothing about.
If you lived near the equator, you would like heat, it would not bother you very much, but then if you travelled to the North Pole, the cold would seriously bother you. You are not used to it, you would not have more resistance to it and like below freezing tempatures.
Same goes if you lived in the North Pole, you would be resistant to the cold and be accustomed to it. but then, if you travelled somewhere near the equator, you could not handle such high tempatures for very long. You could easily get heat exhaustion.
Celestia gear gave resists to 2 schools, If you were death, you got resistance to life and myth. If you were fire, you got resistance to Ice and Storm. Balance got a little bit of Resistance to both elemental and spiritual schools. Ice, got universal resistance.
In the level 58 stuff, yes. However, there were generally two sets of gear throughout Celestia, one with resist to your school and one with resist to the other schools in your group (or a little to everything if you were balance, and myth for some reason got a little resistance to ice and fire as well as life and death).
darthjt wrote:
Then came WaterWorks gear, which just gave universal resistance.
Yep, special tailored legendary gear that you had to farm for and combined heal boosts, critical stats, and universal resist on one outfit. Let's also not forget the universal accuracy for everyone that didn't get powerpip chance.
darthjt wrote:
Now comes Zafaria Crafted Gear. Ice gets not only universal resistance, it gets resistance for fire and storm on top of it.
Ice loses 8% of their universal resist for a net gain of 13% to two specific schools, both of which can use prisms to strike against the now lower numbers, sacrificing on already pathetic accuracy and damage boosts to do so. I would also like to point out that ice, whose only truly significant advantage is the sheer amount of resist and health they can have, can now be fighting against 35% armor pierce attacks from any school, and possibly over 40% for many. Let's look at heckhound with tc infallible and an extraordinary. If the ice has that special pet and the gear so that they do have 70% resist, a 35% armor pierce reduces the effective resist to 35%. If, on round 2, the fire throws prisms, now it strikes against effective resist of 14%. I would also like to point out that to get to 70% storm and fire resist, ice has to use Elissa's Chill Band. Compared to the Wintertusk Ring of Valor there is a net gain of 216 health, 9 mana, 3% universal resist, and +42 ice critical block for a net loss of +4 energy, +7% powerpip chance, +12 universal critical block, +1% ice damage (+3% to all other schools), +5% incoming healing, and +8% outgoing healing.
darthjt wrote:
All of the other schools have to lose universal resistance to get the extra resistance to other schools.
Some. But the robes maintain 12% global resist. They can also get boots with very little loss of global resist but a HUGE global critical block boost of +79. They are faced with just as many tradeoffs as ice is aren't they? Then you also have to start considering the rings and athames the other schools can get. Storm, for instance, has two choices of athame that compliment either the lifeforce blade or the new sidhe staff. That isn't an option for ice. If they want the pip chance and accuracy the new staff gives and to keep the resistance totals that everyone is complaining about, they have to make a significant sacrifice in universal critical block score. They also have to give up significant healing boost in order to gain that extra 3% resist.
darthjt wrote:
These resistance boosts have taken Ice's resistance up to and over 55% depending on your choices. Then, if you have a pet with full spell proof and spell defy, you can easily have 70% resistance or more to Storm and even more resistance to Fire.
The ONLY global boost that Zafaria added was the new ice ring which grants an extra 3% resist. This is more than compensated for by introducing armor pierce. To get even more resist to fire, you further have to give up an additional 3% global resist, 1% ice accuracy (3% to all other schools), 2% damage, and 5% incoming healing for a net gain of 4% resist to fire, +14 global critical block, 41 health and an elemental shield item card. Bottom line, if you add in the heartsteel athame (don't even get me started on what you sacrifice to get that 5% resist there), the most you can get without a pet is 47%. If you switch out the two new crafted items as suggested, you drop to 39% global and 60% storm and fire. Again, this is with the heartsteel athame which the big 70% number everyone keeps tossing around doesn't include. Without it, you'd be at 34% global and 55% fire and storm and a whole lot of sacrifices to get there.
darthjt wrote:
Now, Zafaria crafted gear has benefits and draw backs.
Yep. For everyone.
darthjt wrote:
While we are in fact, moving to Transcended, I can understand Universal Resistance! However, I can not see the excessive added resistance to schools outside of your school of focus. You should resist the school you are in, since you have studied it and gained control over it, not gain resistance to schools you know nothing about.
Why? Your teacher trains you in a dual shield specifically for the other two schools in your group. The crafted armor is consistent with this while adding in 12% global resist to everyone. In fact, it could be argued that what was unnatural was resistance to your own school since you had to seek out a different trainer to learn a shield for that.
darthjt wrote:
This is common sense, not rocket science.
No, it isn't common sense. Its an assumption you're making. People generally don't learn to defend against people on their "team". They learn to defend against their peers while over time learning generic defense to the unknown. That is exactly what this gear does.
Without straying too far off topic, I would like to point out that this assumed 15% pet everyone keeps tossing around to get these figures is something that EVERY school can do. Its also not easy. You yourself darth have argued many times that "people have worked hard for this pet and they deserve to use it". I'm getting very tired of the constant reference to the worst case scenario ice while simultaneously implying that the other school in question (generally storm) doesn't have similar options.
For the record, after literally dozens and dozens of hatches, I still haven't managed to attain this magic pet. The best I have gotten was an 11% spell proof pet whose only other useful attribute was power pip chance. In fact, very few of the people I see when I hang around ranked PVP have this 15% pet. Many have some degree of proof (or defy and proof) but the aggregate is generally not more than perhaps 11 to 12% with an average between 8% and 9%. I'm also very tired of the implication that ice can get these figures without making large and rather significant compromises to other key stats while simultaneously implying that others schools have no gains (or extraordinarily small gains) on anything for all their losses. It just isn't so.
Ok, tangent completed... back to the thread at hand.
Celestia gear gave resists to 2 schools, If you were death, you got resistance to life and myth. If you were fire, you got resistance to Ice and Storm. Balance got a little bit of Resistance to both elemental and spiritual schools. Ice, got universal resistance.
In the level 58 stuff, yes. However, there were generally two sets of gear throughout Celestia, one with resist to your school and one with resist to the other schools in your group (or a little to everything if you were balance, and myth for some reason got a little resistance to ice and fire as well as life and death).
All the way up to level 58 gear, resistance was to your own school or global resistance, not 2 opposing schools.
darthjt wrote:
Then came WaterWorks gear, which just gave universal resistance.
Yep, special tailored legendary gear that you had to farm for and combined heal boosts, critical stats, and universal resist on one outfit. Let's also not forget the universal accuracy for everyone that didn't get powerpip chance.
darthjt wrote:
Now comes Zafaria Crafted Gear. Ice gets not only universal resistance, it gets resistance for fire and storm on top of it.
Ice loses 8% of their universal resist for a net gain of 13% to two specific schools, both of which can use prisms to strike against the now lower numbers, sacrificing on already pathetic accuracy and damage boosts to do so. I would also like to point out that ice, whose only truly significant advantage is the sheer amount of resist and health they can have, can now be fighting against 35% armor pierce attacks from any school, and possibly over 40% for many. Let's look at heckhound with tc infallible and an extraordinary. If the ice has that special pet and the gear so that they do have 70% resist, a 35% armor pierce reduces the effective resist to 35%. If, on round 2, the fire throws prisms, now it strikes against effective resist of 14%. I would also like to point out that to get to 70% storm and fire resist, ice has to use Elissa's Chill Band. Compared to the Wintertusk Ring of Valor there is a net gain of 216 health, 9 mana, 3% universal resist, and +42 ice critical block for a net loss of +4 energy, +7% powerpip chance, +12 universal critical block, +1% ice damage (+3% to all other schools), +5% incoming healing, and +8% outgoing healing.
Meanwhile, to get armor piering on gear, you must give up resistance entirely and give up accuracy and power. Hmmm, some trade off!
You are looking at Ice only, compare what Ice gives up compared to what other schools have to give up! You really don't see a huge difference?
darthjt wrote:
All of the other schools have to lose universal resistance to get the extra resistance to other schools.
Some. But the robes maintain 12% global resist. They can also get boots with very little loss of global resist but a HUGE global critical block boost of +79. They are faced with just as many tradeoffs as ice is aren't they? Then you also have to start considering the rings and athames the other schools can get. Storm, for instance, has two choices of athame that compliment either the lifeforce blade or the new sidhe staff. That isn't an option for ice. If they want the pip chance and accuracy the new staff gives and to keep the resistance totals that everyone is complaining about, they have to make a significant sacrifice in universal critical block score. They also have to give up significant healing boost in order to gain that extra 3% resist.
Meanwhile, Ice still keeps global critical block on it's robe and global resistance, and gains 12 resistance to fire and storm! No other robe does this!
Add in the already global critical block from waterworks boots, ring, and athame and you have already what all the other schools have. Not to mention the wands that give critical block! So, Ice is allowed to keep it's massive resistance, gain more resistance, gain more critical, without losing as much power or accuracy as the other schools!
darthjt wrote:
These resistance boosts have taken Ice's resistance up to and over 55% depending on your choices. Then, if you have a pet with full spell proof and spell defy, you can easily have 70% resistance or more to Storm and even more resistance to Fire.
The ONLY global boost that Zafaria added was the new ice ring which grants an extra 3% resist. This is more than compensated for by introducing armor pierce. To get even more resist to fire, you further have to give up an additional 3% global resist, 1% ice accuracy (3% to all other schools), 2% damage, and 5% incoming healing for a net gain of 4% resist to fire, +14 global critical block, 41 health and an elemental shield item card. Bottom line, if you add in the heartsteel athame (don't even get me started on what you sacrifice to get that 5% resist there), the most you can get without a pet is 47%. If you switch out the two new crafted items as suggested, you drop to 39% global and 60% storm and fire. Again, this is with the heartsteel athame which the big 70% number everyone keeps tossing around doesn't include. Without it, you'd be at 34% global and 55% fire and storm and a whole lot of sacrifices to get there.
No arguement on the new Ice ring, why gain ice critical block and lose power and power pip chance for 3 more resistance. Ice has plenty of resistance as it is!
darthjt wrote:
Now, Zafaria crafted gear has benefits and draw backs.
Yep. For everyone.
Obviously, more for all other schools than for Ice! How can you dispute this, when it is obvious and evident in the robe alone?
darthjt wrote:
While we are in fact, moving to Transcended, I can understand Universal Resistance! However, I can not see the excessive added resistance to schools outside of your school of focus. You should resist the school you are in, since you have studied it and gained control over it, not gain resistance to schools you know nothing about.
Why? Your teacher trains you in a dual shield specifically for the other two schools in your group. The crafted armor is consistent with this while adding in 12% global resist to everyone. In fact, it could be argued that what was unnatural was resistance to your own school since you had to seek out a different trainer to learn a shield for that.
Yes, our teacher trains us in dual shields, of 70% shields, but are we not also trained in an 80% shield to our own school? Is an 80% shield not more powerful than a 70% shield?
darthjt wrote:
This is common sense, not rocket science.
No, it isn't common sense. Its an assumption you're making. People generally don't learn to defend against people on their "team". They learn to defend against their peers while over time learning generic defense to the unknown. That is exactly what this gear does.
Really, so if you live in Alaska, you train yourself to deal with extreme heat? If you live in the Carribean, you train yourself to below freezing tempatures? What world do you live in?
In Battle, yes, it is smart to bring a shield that will block fire, if you are fighting a fire mage, but to say you automatically resist it, that is foolishness. Without straying too far off topic, I would like to point out that this assumed 15% pet everyone keeps tossing around to get these figures is something that EVERY school can do. Its also not easy. You yourself darth have argued many times that "people have worked hard for this pet and they deserve to use it". I'm getting very tired of the constant reference to the worst case scenario ice while simultaneously implying that the other school in question (generally storm) doesn't have similar options.
Yes, every school can get a pet that gives resistance, or damage boosts. I have seen 18 damage boost on one pet. Put that on an Ice wizard that has incredible resistance and add another 10 for spell proof. With an additional 18 damage boost.
For the record, after literally dozens and dozens of hatches, I still haven't managed to attain this magic pet. The best I have gotten was an 11% spell proof pet whose only other useful attribute was power pip chance. In fact, very few of the people I see when I hang around ranked PVP have this 15% pet. Many have some degree of proof (or defy and proof) but the aggregate is generally not more than perhaps 11 to 12% with an average between 8% and 9%. I'm also very tired of the implication that ice can get these figures without making large and rather significant compromises to other key stats while simultaneously implying that others schools have no gains (or extraordinarily small gains) on anything for all their losses. It just isn't so.
Ok, tangent completed... back to the thread at hand.
I am sorry you have not gotten your perfect pet, after dozens and dozens of hatches. Most of the people I know and see, especially in PvP, have pets with Spell proof, spell defy, and spritely... Not sure where you are hanging out at.
Just because you don't have it, or the people you hang out with don't have it, does not mean half or most of the Good PvP players dont.
All the way up to level 58 gear, resistance was to your own school or global resistance, not 2 opposing schools.
Interesting. A brief swing by the bazaar would seem to indicate otherwise. Looking at storm cause I know they are favorite topic of yours as of late:
56 - maelstrom costume - +15% to ice and fire 52 - Typhoon Armor - +15% to ice and fire
darthjt wrote:
Meanwhile, to get armor piering on gear, you must give up resistance entirely and give up accuracy and power. Hmmm, some trade off!
Yes, because clearly the squamish gear and some items of farmed gear have a complete loss of resistance. I'll grant you, you lose global resist for armor pierce but that isn't what you said is it? As I've said before, you can only evaluate the value of the tradeoff when aligned with a specific strategy.
darthjt wrote:
You are looking at Ice only, compare what Ice gives up compared to what other schools have to give up! You really don't see a huge difference?
Not from my perspective no. While this is a fascinating conversation, it is best left for the other thread we have been arguing in. It has no bearing on the assertion that "Resistance needs to go back to own school!".
darthjt wrote:
Meanwhile, Ice still keeps global critical block on it's robe and global resistance, and gains 12 resistance to fire and storm! No other robe does this!
Add in the already global critical block from waterworks boots, ring, and athame and you have already what all the other schools have. Not to mention the wands that give critical block! So, Ice is allowed to keep it's massive resistance, gain more resistance, gain more critical, without losing as much power or accuracy as the other schools!
To get all of these assertions to be correct, you have to compare the new level 66 crafted ice robe to select attributes of both the level 58 and waterworks ice robes.
darthjt wrote:
No arguement on the new Ice ring, why gain ice critical block and lose power and power pip chance for 3 more resistance. Ice has plenty of resistance as it is!
See, and people think that you and I have no common ground. :D
darthjt wrote:
Obviously, more for all other schools than for Ice! How can you dispute this, when it is obvious and evident in the robe alone?
I hinted at it above, but its still best left for the other thread...
darthjt wrote:
Yes, our teacher trains us in dual shields, of 70% shields, but are we not also trained in an 80% shield to our own school? Is an 80% shield not more powerful than a 70% shield?
Not by our teacher, we're not. In the section you quoted I mentioned that you had to seek out a different trainer for your own school of magic who is clearly a defensive expert because she knows 80% shields to every school of magic except balance. Is 70% defense to two schools of magic not a better defensive option than 80% to your own?
* So wait, by darthjt's reasoning there, does that mean that balance should NEVER get gear resist to balance?
darthjt wrote:
Really, so if you live in Alaska, you train yourself to deal with extreme heat? If you live in the Carribean, you train yourself to below freezing tempatures? What world do you live in?
Did the discussion suddenly change from defensive magic to one about outerwear? If I live in the Caribbean, I don't train myself to resist the effects of a flamethrower, no more than an arctic life prepares me to be struck in the head by an ice blade. As to the world I live on, there is no magic here, mass and physics are important and relevant, and the universe isn't held together by an addled tree missing an eye.
darthjt wrote:
In Battle, yes, it is smart to bring a shield that will block fire, if you are fighting a fire mage, but to say you automatically resist it, that is foolishness.
But it is neither being said nor automatic. Gear selection is an elective process. You choose what you are wearing. It actually makes sense that as your school specific gear improves, the more knowledge of the school wearing it would be required. If your teacher doesn't know how to shield their own school, how would they add it in at the higher levels? There are plenty of global pieces of gear that can protect you from everything.
darthjt wrote:
Yes, every school can get a pet that gives resistance, or damage boosts. I have seen 18 damage boost on one pet. Put that on an Ice wizard that has incredible resistance and add another 10 for spell proof. With an additional 18 damage boost.
Or, a pet having 20% resistance (effective) to ice and 12% damage boost on a storm?
darthjt wrote:
I am sorry you have not gotten your perfect pet, after dozens and dozens of hatches. Most of the people I know and see, especially in PvP, have pets with Spell proof, spell defy, and spritely... Not sure where you are hanging out at.
Well, it started out nice, and for that I thank you. Seems to be turning a corner at the end though...
darthjt wrote:
Just because you don't have it, or the people you hang out with don't have it, does not mean half or most of the Good PvP players dont.
Oh there it is. I like that though, kudos on your verbal jujitsu. I particularly like how you tied what started as a sympathetic sentiment into an implication that I must not be part of the "most of the Good PvP players" there at the end. Well done. ;)
Obviously you hate ice with a burning passion.. :( Anyways, ice should keep universal resistance, but yes they should get rid of the extra resistance as you said. Is that fine??
All the way up to level 58 gear, resistance was to your own school or global resistance, not 2 opposing schools.
Interesting. A brief swing by the bazaar would seem to indicate otherwise. Looking at storm cause I know they are favorite topic of yours as of late:
56 - maelstrom costume - +15% to ice and fire 52 - Typhoon Armor - +15% to ice and fire
'
Oh my, chalk one up to Gtarhannon for once! Yeah, I forgot all the new gear updates from Wintertusk. Seeing that all my wizards were Legendary during the release, I did not bother to look at some of the new gear.
Ok, tell ya what, how about you find me gear below Grandmaster that has dual resistance then. If you can do that, then maybe those 8 levels have a real bearing on this topic!
darthjt wrote:
Meanwhile, to get armor piering on gear, you must give up resistance entirely and give up accuracy and power. Hmmm, some trade off!
Yes, because clearly the squamish gear and some items of farmed gear have a complete loss of resistance. I'll grant you, you lose global resist for armor pierce but that isn't what you said is it? As I've said before, you can only evaluate the value of the tradeoff when aligned with a specific strategy.
Yes, because the best strategy is to give up all defenses and pray that you critical every hit and that you can Armor Pierce you way through their resistance and health, before you take 2500 straight damage, since you gave up all resistance!
darthjt wrote:
You are looking at Ice only, compare what Ice gives up compared to what other schools have to give up! You really don't see a huge difference?
Not from my perspective no. While this is a fascinating conversation, it is best left for the other thread we have been arguing in. It has no bearing on the assertion that "Resistance needs to go back to own school!".
You don't see the differences from your perspective. Hmm, interesting. Ok, we will continue on!
darthjt wrote:
Meanwhile, Ice still keeps global critical block on it's robe and global resistance, and gains 12 resistance to fire and storm! No other robe does this!
Add in the already global critical block from waterworks boots, ring, and athame and you have already what all the other schools have. Not to mention the wands that give critical block! So, Ice is allowed to keep it's massive resistance, gain more resistance, gain more critical, without losing as much power or accuracy as the other schools!
To get all of these assertions to be correct, you have to compare the new level 66 crafted ice robe to select attributes of both the level 58 and waterworks ice robes.
No, We are looking at Waterworks gear and the new level 68 crafted gear robes. They paint a very clear picture and is not an assertion!
darthjt wrote:
No arguement on the new Ice ring, why gain ice critical block and lose power and power pip chance for 3 more resistance. Ice has plenty of resistance as it is!
See, and people think that you and I have no common ground. :D
We do have common ground, just not very often. I like light, I like to see what I am reading. I like to see clearly and look at a picture entirely. Sometimes, you do too, but every now and then, you don't. You cloud your vision because of school bias, as with the ice gear. Now, I know, alot was taken from Ice during Wintertusk update and more was given back this update. I am simply stating that things are taken from one extreme to the next, instead of keeping things balanced.
darthjt wrote:
Obviously, more for all other schools than for Ice! How can you dispute this, when it is obvious and evident in the robe alone?
I hinted at it above, but its still best left for the other thread...
darthjt wrote:
Yes, our teacher trains us in dual shields, of 70% shields, but are we not also trained in an 80% shield to our own school? Is an 80% shield not more powerful than a 70% shield?
Not by our teacher, we're not. In the section you quoted I mentioned that you had to seek out a different trainer for your own school of magic who is clearly a defensive expert because she knows 80% shields to every school of magic except balance. Is 70% defense to two schools of magic not a better defensive option than 80% to your own?
Ok, so, according to the game, we go to the fairground, where a little girl is, and she can train us in our school shield, once we reach level 10. This little girl is a defensive expert? By who's authority? Balance is given elemental and spiritual shields through quest rewards, although, they are the only schools to get rewards for completion of these quests.
* So wait, by darthjt's reasoning there, does that mean that balance should NEVER get gear resist to balance?
Really? And on what play of words did you use to have me say this? No, by my words, Balance should be resistant to Balance. Ice to Ice, Fire to Fire, Myth to Myth, Storm to Storm, etc. Same as Every boss in this game. Hmm, why are these powerful school bosses not immune to 2 opposing schools then? Why do they only resist their own school? And don't even try to bring in the Sun, Moon, and Star School Bosses!
darthjt wrote:
Really, so if you live in Alaska, you train yourself to deal with extreme heat? If you live in the Carribean, you train yourself to below freezing tempatures? What world do you live in?
Did the discussion suddenly change from defensive magic to one about outerwear? If I live in the Caribbean, I don't train myself to resist the effects of a flamethrower, no more than an arctic life prepares me to be struck in the head by an ice blade. As to the world I live on, there is no magic here, mass and physics are important and relevant, and the universe isn't held together by an addled tree missing an eye.
I doubt anyone would train themself to resist the effects of a flamethrower, however, you would be accustomed to the heat and be far less prone to heat exhaustion, correct?
You stated in just a minute ago, that a defensive specialist trains you in your school specific shield and not your teacher, yet, you want to now go off into the real world? Why? Because it suits your needs for whatever point you are trying to make?
darthjt wrote:
In Battle, yes, it is smart to bring a shield that will block fire, if you are fighting a fire mage, but to say you automatically resist it, that is foolishness.
But it is neither being said nor automatic. Gear selection is an elective process. You choose what you are wearing. It actually makes sense that as your school specific gear improves, the more knowledge of the school wearing it would be required. If your teacher doesn't know how to shield their own school, how would they add it in at the higher levels? There are plenty of global pieces of gear that can protect you from everything.
Again, you are assuming your teacher knows nothing. Just because the game creators put all the shields in one place by a girl in the fair grounds, does not have any bearing on this. As I just stated, name one Boss in the game that resists out of school and resists the 2 opposing schools!
darthjt wrote:
Yes, every school can get a pet that gives resistance, or damage boosts. I have seen 18 damage boost on one pet. Put that on an Ice wizard that has incredible resistance and add another 10 for spell proof. With an additional 18 damage boost.
Or, a pet having 20% resistance (effective) to ice and 12% damage boost on a storm?
darthjt wrote:
I am sorry you have not gotten your perfect pet, after dozens and dozens of hatches. Most of the people I know and see, especially in PvP, have pets with Spell proof, spell defy, and spritely... Not sure where you are hanging out at.
Well, it started out nice, and for that I thank you. Seems to be turning a corner at the end though...
darthjt wrote:
Just because you don't have it, or the people you hang out with don't have it, does not mean half or most of the Good PvP players dont.
Oh there it is. I like that though, kudos on your verbal jujitsu. I particularly like how you tied what started as a sympathetic sentiment into an implication that I must not be part of the "most of the Good PvP players" there at the end. Well done. ;)
You are a funny guy. I must admit that! I do enjoy our written jousts as you try to be clever and witty. You do provide some very good mathematical facts and that is always a pleasure, considering most people just throw out numbers without knowing their actual meaning.
If you ever do want a good pet, simply ask, I can help you with this effort.
However, I still firmly believe that schools should have some type of Global resistance, as with Waterworks gear, then any added resistance, is to your specific school and not the 2 opposing schools.
Oh my, chalk one up to Gtarhannon for once! Yeah, I forgot all the new gear updates from Wintertusk. Seeing that all my wizards were Legendary during the release, I did not bother to look at some of the new gear.
Weird. Those items were both posted to the wiki before Wintertusk went into test. I wonder how they got there ahead of time?
darthjt wrote:
Ok, tell ya what, how about you find me gear below Grandmaster that has dual resistance then. If you can do that, then maybe those 8 levels have a real bearing on this topic!
That was never in dispute.
darthjt wrote:
Yes, because the best strategy is to give up all defenses and pray that you critical every hit and that you can Armor Pierce you way through their resistance and health, before you take 2500 straight damage, since you gave up all resistance!
I don't presume to know. Refer to where you quoted me when I said "As I've said before, you can only evaluate the value of the tradeoff when aligned with a specific strategy".
darthjt wrote:
No, We are looking at Waterworks gear and the new level 68 crafted gear robes. They paint a very clear picture and is not an assertion!
Its level 66 crafted gear and yes, you made assertions. The FACT is that on an item by item basis, ice has the greatest percentage drop in damage going from the waterworks robe to the crafted 66 robe of any school. The FACT is that from the level 58 ice robe to the level 66 robe, Ice has the ONLY drop in global resistance. The FACT is that an awful lot of ice wizards still use the level 58 robe because it is a widely held belief they got shafted on the waterworks gear. A belief, I might add, that you admitted you ascribe to. The FACTS are clear. There are LARGE tradeoffs for an ice wizard to make in order to switch to the new gear.
darthjt wrote:
We do have common ground, just not very often. I like light, I like to see what I am reading. I like to see clearly and look at a picture entirely. Sometimes, you do too, but every now and then, you don't. You cloud your vision because of school bias, as with the ice gear. Now, I know, alot was taken from Ice during Wintertusk update and more was given back this update. I am simply stating that things are taken from one extreme to the next, instead of keeping things balanced.
School bias? Interesting. Aren't you the guy that recently said:
darthjt wrote:
Well, it has seemed, that no matter how many times I post, or facts I present, people post these crazy ideas and KI runs with them. So, I figure, if you can't beat them, join them.
Meanwhile, I'm the hotheaded guy who advocated things like aggregate attribute caps specifically to prevent things like massive resist to any one school back near the release of Celestia. But clearly, I can see how you might think I have school bias.
darthjt wrote:
Ok, so, according to the game, we go to the fairground, where a little girl is, and she can train us in our school shield, once we reach level 10. This little girl is a defensive expert? By who's authority? Balance is given elemental and spiritual shields through quest rewards, although, they are the only schools to get rewards for completion of these quests.
You're a child who saves the entire spiral several times. Is it really that hard to believe?
darthjt wrote:
Really? And on what play of words did you use to have me say this? No, by my words, Balance should be resistant to Balance. Ice to Ice, Fire to Fire, Myth to Myth, Storm to Storm, etc.
Read it again Darth, I'm sure you'll see the source of my little joke.
darthjt wrote:
Hmm, why are these powerful school bosses not immune to 2 opposing schools then? Why do they only resist their own school? And don't even try to bring in the Sun, Moon, and Star School Bosses!
Why does their opposite school boost on them? Why do two schools boost on them in Celestia and beyond? We don't have that issue. Are you saying we should?
darthjt wrote:
I doubt anyone would train themself to resist the effects of a flamethrower, however, you would be accustomed to the heat and be far less prone to heat exhaustion, correct?
You stated in just a minute ago, that a defensive specialist trains you in your school specific shield and not your teacher, yet, you want to now go off into the real world? Why? Because it suits your needs for whatever point you are trying to make?
I was addressing your "real world point" with another "real world point". You see in this world, science is as close as we get to magic. Was I to simply ignore your points?
darthjt wrote:
Again, you are assuming your teacher knows nothing. Just because the game creators put all the shields in one place by a girl in the fair grounds, does not have any bearing on this. As I just stated, name one Boss in the game that resists out of school and resists the 2 opposing schools!
You're assuming the teacher does know something when in 68 levels of play, there is no evidence otherwise. As I stated, should our opposite school boost on us for these same school resistances as well?
darthjt wrote:
You are a funny guy. I must admit that! I do enjoy our written jousts as you try to be clever and witty. You do provide some very good mathematical facts and that is always a pleasure, considering most people just throw out numbers without knowing their actual meaning.
If you ever do want a good pet, simply ask, I can help you with this effort.
Well, thank you for the compliment and the offer. They are both appreciated. I too enjoy our debates.
darthjt wrote:
However, I still firmly believe that schools should have some type of Global resistance, as with Waterworks gear, then any added resistance, is to your specific school and not the 2 opposing schools
Oh my, chalk one up to Gtarhannon for once! Yeah, I forgot all the new gear updates from Wintertusk. Seeing that all my wizards were Legendary during the release, I did not bother to look at some of the new gear.
Weird. Those items were both posted to the wiki before Wintertusk went into test. I wonder how they got there ahead of time?
darthjt wrote:
Ok, tell ya what, how about you find me gear below Grandmaster that has dual resistance then. If you can do that, then maybe those 8 levels have a real bearing on this topic!
That was never in dispute.
Oh really? Then why are you making such a big issue about them being there before level 58? So, after 50 is fine and not disputed, do you even have a relavent point to this?
darthjt wrote:
Yes, because the best strategy is to give up all defenses and pray that you critical every hit and that you can Armor Pierce you way through their resistance and health, before you take 2500 straight damage, since you gave up all resistance!
I don't presume to know. Refer to where you quoted me when I said "As I've said before, you can only evaluate the value of the tradeoff when aligned with a specific strategy".
Ah yes, therefore, you can also assume that some Ice wizards would take the strategy of giving up all of their resistance and going with the Armor Piercing and Critical attacking too? No, of course not, whom in their right minds would give up that much resistance? But of course, Storm should, according to you and the "Strategies" of the PvP Player.
darthjt wrote:
No, We are looking at Waterworks gear and the new level 68 crafted gear robes. They paint a very clear picture and is not an assertion!
Its level 66 crafted gear and yes, you made assertions. The FACT is that on an item by item basis, ice has the greatest percentage drop in damage going from the waterworks robe to the crafted 66 robe of any school. The FACT is that from the level 58 ice robe to the level 66 robe, Ice has the ONLY drop in global resistance. The FACT is that an awful lot of ice wizards still use the level 58 robe because it is a widely held belief they got shafted on the waterworks gear. A belief, I might add, that you admitted you ascribe to. The FACTS are clear. There are LARGE tradeoffs for an ice wizard to make in order to switch to the new gear. Large trade off for Ice? Storm with waterworks gear and pet with pain giver, goes from 89% power boost, to 78% power boost, loses 4% storm accuracy, Global Critical block on the robe and 8 global resistance, but gains 18 resistance to Ice and Fire and can get up to 180 critical.
While Ice, Keeps Global resistance on the robe and gains 12 resistance to fire and storm. Keeps and gets more global critical block. Loses no accuracy on the robe, but 4% damage boost. Now on the hat, Ice loses 1 accuracy, loses 3 global resistance to Storm losing all, Ice also gains 9 more resistance to Fire and Storm and gets their critical up to 120.
So, that same pet, takes Ice damage now to 43% Damage Boost. Yeah, huge trade off.
darthjt wrote:
We do have common ground, just not very often. I like light, I like to see what I am reading. I like to see clearly and look at a picture entirely. Sometimes, you do too, but every now and then, you don't. You cloud your vision because of school bias, as with the ice gear. Now, I know, alot was taken from Ice during Wintertusk update and more was given back this update. I am simply stating that things are taken from one extreme to the next, instead of keeping things balanced.
School bias? Interesting. Aren't you the guy that recently said:
darthjt wrote:
Well, it has seemed, that no matter how many times I post, or facts I present, people post these crazy ideas and KI runs with them. So, I figure, if you can't beat them, join them.
Yes, I stated this, why? Because spells and schools keep getting nerfed and then others get outrageous boosts like the Ice gear. Meanwhile, I'm the hotheaded guy who advocated things like aggregate attribute caps specifically to prevent things like massive resist to any one school back near the release of Celestia. But clearly, I can see how you might think I have school bias.
Yes, I know you stated this back then, you also stated caps on Damage as well as Resistance. Although, they are supposed to balance out, but clearly, the decrease is more substancial for other schools than it is for Ice.
darthjt wrote:
Ok, so, according to the game, we go to the fairground, where a little girl is, and she can train us in our school shield, once we reach level 10. This little girl is a defensive expert? By who's authority? Balance is given elemental and spiritual shields through quest rewards, although, they are the only schools to get rewards for completion of these quests.
You're a child who saves the entire spiral several times. Is it really that hard to believe?
That this child knows more about shields than your teachers do? Yes, I do find that hard to believe. Let's not get off topic here when you know your point on this is irrelavent.
darthjt wrote:
Really? And on what play of words did you use to have me say this? No, by my words, Balance should be resistant to Balance. Ice to Ice, Fire to Fire, Myth to Myth, Storm to Storm, etc.
Read it again Darth, I'm sure you'll see the source of my little joke.
Yes, yes, oh so amusing, did I forget to laugh?
darthjt wrote:
Hmm, why are these powerful school bosses not immune to 2 opposing schools then? Why do they only resist their own school? And don't even try to bring in the Sun, Moon, and Star School Bosses!
Why does their opposite school boost on them? Why do two schools boost on them in Celestia and beyond? We don't have that issue. Are you saying we should?
Interesting concept. Although, how would anyone ever agree to how much a spell should be boosted on a character, per school. You are still avoiding the point, are you not? The Bosses do resist their own school and not other schools, is this not true? Quit sidestepping the questions.
darthjt wrote:
I doubt anyone would train themself to resist the effects of a flamethrower, however, you would be accustomed to the heat and be far less prone to heat exhaustion, correct?
You stated in just a minute ago, that a defensive specialist trains you in your school specific shield and not your teacher, yet, you want to now go off into the real world? Why? Because it suits your needs for whatever point you are trying to make?
I was addressing your "real world point" with another "real world point". You see in this world, science is as close as we get to magic. Was I to simply ignore your points?
Okay fine, real world points and sciences. Does a person that is weilding a flame thrower, not wear flame resistant clothing and protective gear to fire? Why, because they are weilding a flame thrower. They are not protected against a blizzard or freezing tempatures, now are they?
darthjt wrote:
Again, you are assuming your teacher knows nothing. Just because the game creators put all the shields in one place by a girl in the fair grounds, does not have any bearing on this. As I just stated, name one Boss in the game that resists out of school and resists the 2 opposing schools!
You're assuming the teacher does know something when in 68 levels of play, there is no evidence otherwise. As I stated, should our opposite school boost on us for these same school resistances as well?
You want evidence? Ok, fine, your evidence... When you get your level 48 and 58 pets, do they come with same school abilities? Are they school only? Do they have May cast "School Shield" or give "School Proof"? Why oh why then, do they not give may cast to your opposite school?
darthjt wrote:
You are a funny guy. I must admit that! I do enjoy our written jousts as you try to be clever and witty. You do provide some very good mathematical facts and that is always a pleasure, considering most people just throw out numbers without knowing their actual meaning.
If you ever do want a good pet, simply ask, I can help you with this effort.
Well, thank you for the compliment and the offer. They are both appreciated. I too enjoy our debates.
darthjt wrote:
However, I still firmly believe that schools should have some type of Global resistance, as with Waterworks gear, then any added resistance, is to your specific school and not the 2 opposing schools
