3. No one has said a spell was OP in PvE. All of the OP statements are coming from some of the PvPers.
I subbed this game because it was fun and a good way to relax. I don't pay to play so that a few can weaken my wizards(9) just so they can keep an advantage in what was a side feature but was also just as much fun at one time.....
I play to have fun and relax. This was my way to get away from the reality of the real world for a few hours.
goldendragon18 my friend so glad to see you here. :D
I believe Joe was asking to have that PvP assertion (#3) explained. I don't get it either and disagree when it is said on Central. I believe there is a line of thought in the PvP community that all things should be equal in PvE and PvP. I disagree.
I too play to have fun. That is why I subbed. CL forward changed the game dynamics a lot. That is when PvP seemed to explode. I just don't remember seeing all the hoopla before that. I freely admit it most likely is I just wasn't aware of it. I am thinking maybe that is Joe thinks there was divide.
Megan Frostriver
Megan, I am also glad to see you here.
To some degree, the PvP and PvE communities at one time were fairly equal. That is no longer the case. There are those in the PvP community now that have a single train of thought as to what ALL wizards should have equipped to achieve maximum stats.
In regards to all the nerfing pryor to CL, there was some but it was mostly minor stuff. Nothing to get upset about and rant. The worst of it did start after CL went live.
Some of the frustration over PvP is with newer players ramming a wizard all the way through PvE before ever entering the arena and when they do, they do get matched with High ranking PvPers since the system was set to match wizard levels and not rank.... Then, the next thing you will see are all the threads on Central literally screaming to fix PvP. They need to learn to start PvP as soon as they are allowed to enter the arena.
The Puppet team issue has also been a problem and I did see a comment that KI was working on trying to fix that, but I think it may be a while before they can fix it so it does not mess up the rest of the system.
The PvP system does need some overhauling done and even though I am not now doing PvP, I hope that KI will address the issues in this aspect BEFORE another world is added.
The GS issue is starting to get blown all out of proportion. I am beginning to think that Life would have been better off to have gotten another AoE or even a Dot, and we would have faced rants on that too, but to a lesser degree. GS was useful for PvE, and those suggesting that it was being spammed in PvP need to step back and look again. Any life wizard that intends to actually fight for rank is not going to waste a lot of pips to use more than once. I wouldn't and the chances are I would not have used it the first time.
Anyway, that is just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
The GS issue is starting to get blown all out of proportion. I am beginning to think that Life would have been better off to have gotten another AoE or even a Dot, and we would have faced rants on that too, but to a lesser degree. GS was useful for PvE, and those suggesting that it was being spammed in PvP need to step back and look again. Any life wizard that intends to actually fight for rank is not going to waste a lot of pips to use more than once. I wouldn't and the chances are I would not have used it the first time.
Anyway, that is just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
See you in the Spiral
Fallon WinterLeaf Legendary Theurgist
Goldendragon18- Thanks so much for you response to me. You gave me new insight and I appreciate it.
I snipped out the top bit to reply. I do agree with you. As a PvE player I can deal with GS being 15% health back. I am still not happy with the pip cost but hey, I don't have to like everything or expect everything to be 100% my way.
After going through AV with my best buddy and her Myth, I would so love a 4 pip AoE! Her Frog was lethal. She could get off 2 Frogs before I could even think of using Forest Lord. She had mobs dispatched tidily.
i to agree with both of you megan and dragon. pvp is gaining to much power. some of the spells i see now i suspect were meant for pvp not pve(detonate for example). when pvp was intruduced the game was balanced between pve and pvp quite well but when celestia came to scales started tipping in pvps favor(2 pip wand didint make it into live game as example
i to agree with both of you megan and dragon. pvp is gaining to much power. some of the spells i see now i suspect were meant for pvp not pve(detonate for example). when pvp was intruduced the game was balanced between pve and pvp quite well but when celestia came to scales started tipping in pvps favor(2 pip wand didint make it into live game as example
It is. I am starting to see KI trying to balance the game. Unfortunately for PvE players that means we are losing tools we need.
Gear issues have also come on to my radar. When our spells go to PvP they get used with the top gear. That makes our nice spells way way stronger and OP there. In WC-DS good gear was readily available to everyone through the Bazaar. There wasn't a whole lot of difference between top Level 48 gear and Malistaire's Robe. Now that isn't the case. The best gear has to farmed or crafted. That makes it unavailable to those who don't like to or can't craft or farm.
I am starting to understand the PvP side. It makes me very conflicted. What works for us doesn't work for them. What works for them makes us weaker. So KI balancing the game makes PvP look more important. When actually game balance is what is important. I am sure this makes me look like a "sympathizer". I just think I finally see the big picture. It doesn't make me happy, I want it all. I see this going on in the future too.
My hope is we all can quit be nasty to each other. Surely we can agree to disagree with respect. I don't like being treated condescendingly and with disrespect by anyone. Both sides have very intelligent people on then. I am worried because great people like QBB are getting angry and frustrated. She is one of the kindest folks here.
I wish KI would address this. I think understanding why they did what they did would help us all.
i to agree with both of you megan and dragon. pvp is gaining to much power. some of the spells i see now i suspect were meant for pvp not pve(detonate for example). when pvp was intruduced the game was balanced between pve and pvp quite well but when celestia came to scales started tipping in pvps favor(2 pip wand didint make it into live game as example
It is not that PvP is gaining too much power, but the fact is that PvP is the best place to test new spells. Yes, both were fairly well balance before CL. Now we need to as a community, bring it back into balance.
For anyone that is interested in helping balance the game again, please visit this thread on Central. This is only a start and the first of seveal threads. It will take time, but with the support that is much wanted and needed, it can be done.
And Megan, YOU gave me the insight. Thank you. I just hope we can make some headway in this. Talk about a CHALLENGE. I think we just hit the biggest one ever. lol
I continue to disagree that PvP is the best place to test spells. Why should those players determine the scope of our wizards' abilities in PvE? How are they more qualified to make those important decisions for all of us?
I'm sorry to argue with you, because I do have great respect for you. I often enjoy the affirmations in your messages in these forums. However, I do not understand how you can say that PvP should set precedence for all game mechanics.
It's futile to hope for an equitable outcome from this conflict; I already see a bending to the pressure from another fan site, and I don't want to fuel the fire. If others care about PvE, they can speak out. I have other, er, work to do in the Spiral.
i to agree with both of you megan and dragon. pvp is gaining to much power. some of the spells i see now i suspect were meant for pvp not pve(detonate for example). when pvp was intruduced the game was balanced between pve and pvp quite well but when celestia came to scales started tipping in pvps favor(2 pip wand didint make it into live game as example
It is not that PvP is gaining too much power, but the fact is that PvP is the best place to test new spells. Yes, both were fairly well balance before CL. Now we need to as a community, bring it back into balance.
For anyone that is interested in helping balance the game again, please visit this thread on Central. This is only a start and the first of seveal threads. It will take time, but with the support that is much wanted and needed, it can be done.
And Megan, YOU gave me the insight. Thank you. I just hope we can make some headway in this. Talk about a CHALLENGE. I think we just hit the biggest one ever. lol
Sorry, but I am a dedicated poster on these message boards. I have read the link, but so far, I don't see anything that really states how to close or bridge the gap between PvP & PvE. Experiences are nice, but it does not change anything.
Making some things no PvP, is probably and best way to continue the game, without overpowering PvP. PVP gear, was at one time, no PVE, because it was too overpowered for PVE. Then, as time progressed, spells became overpowered for low level PVP, which also became banned and made no PVP. Some spells, will be overpowered at any level in PVP, such as shatter and guardian spirit. But, if we are to keep expanding the game and spells, +2 pip wands that are No PVP and spells like elucidate and simplify that are also No PvP, would be a good start.
Making some things no PvP, is probably and best way to continue the game, without overpowering PvP. PVP gear, was at one time, no PVE, because it was too overpowered for PVE. Then, as time progressed, spells became overpowered for low level PVP, which also became banned and made no PVP. Some spells, will be overpowered at any level in PVP, such as shatter and guardian spirit. But, if we are to keep expanding the game and spells, +2 pip wands that are No PVP and spells like elucidate and simplify that are also No PvP, would be a good start.
And that probably looks like the simplest answer instead of complaining to alter things like critical which will affect all gameplay, make it no PvP. They do this with some treasures. It's funny you mention PvP only gear not being allowed in PvE because it would be "too powerful" when a low level wizard has it. Now we have like 160+ critical and enough resist to weather Armageddon in gameplay that KI implemented more cheating bosses just to provide a challenge for stronger/smarter wizards. They even nearly tripled the average health of enemies since Zafaria came out. At least, that's my guess.
But of all the things KI can do, the simplest thing does look like making certain things be no PvP if they wish to preserve their future updates without constantly editing spells through time. It might even save them some work if they did this and decided on how to do that instead of warping the spells themselves. Now if they did go this route, then the new debate starts: what should we remove from PvP? Should it be anything that someone complains about? If so then beguile would be gone, as well as shatter, snow angel, wild bolt, earthquake, heals, minions, judgement. And most of that would make me pretty sad.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting. You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it. Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed. And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
What makes you think this spell won't show up on a boss by the end of the Morganthe Arc or even the first world of the next Arc? Bosses and mobs are now using Vengance Bubbles. Did you think we would see that this soon? Sooner or later, everything our wizards get, will show up on the opposition.
Yes, everyone that PvPs does PvE, but if they want to get anywhere in PvP, they have too. There are some that create 1 wizard just for this purpose and never make another and only do PvE when new content is added.
My main wizards are both Life. I prefer to use Satyr instead on my team mates when playing with a team..... My Transcendent Life crits most of the time when using a heal and I watch to make sure my team mates maintain a good amount of health to survive the battle. If I have to make a choice between an attack or heal, I will use the heal. Even if one of my team mates does die, the chances are I can heal them with more health with a Satyr for less pips. By using Guiding Light, that increases by 30% and with a crit, I have been able to give a heal with as much as 2300 and if my team mate is not dead, many times this will restore them to full health.
I my opinion, if you are using GS on All of your team then yourself, in most cases the battle is going to be over before you can get enough pips for a good solid hit. At 5 pips each, That will take a few rounds to do and if your team mates have been building and hitting with their best, it just makes sense that the battle is done by the time you accomplish this and have enough pips to use an attack yourself. And this is based on if you are with a full team, not just one other player.
My original post does not complain exclusively about the GS reduction. My post is about what this change, along with others in the past, signify. The change to spells based on PvP forum outcry indicates that PvP continues to grow in power, and to dictate the scope of what wizards can do in PvE. I posted in disagreement with this idea; PvP should not affect PvE to the extent it now does.
Many players do not PvP and we do not like to pay for PvP to dictate gameplay. Simple observation has uncovered a HUGE problem, a malaise in our community, and a need to give PvE an equitable place in decision-making.
At this time, there is a movement to argue that PvP players are the best suited to test our spells before they are released in live game. I strongly disagree with this "solution" to the problem. It just reinforces the mistaken idea that PvP players are somehow more powerful, capable, and skilled in the game. This is wrong.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting. You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it. Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed. And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
so let me ask you, how would you feel if ki introduced a 4 pip LIFE spell like meteor frog ect that did 500 damage all enemies and then bumbed it down to 350 damage because of pvp complainers?
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting.
Over Reacting? Are you new to the message boards? PvP complaints have constantly nerfed spells and the expansion of this game. There is no other way to look at it or explain it. It's fact!
You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it.
Oh no, what ever would we do? Well, considering that if all enemies are dead, the people after do not waste their spells or pips, since KI fixed this issue, I am sure, we would simply kill them again in the next round. Oh my, that was too hard of a concept to overcome, you are completely right.
Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
Interesting theory, do you have any facts or evidence to back up your statement? Thought not.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
Actually, before, the mobs would have constantly fizzled, instead of always hit with it. Now, there is just a minor chance that they hit us with 10 or 100 damage, but it is only minor, since the majority of the time, they hit us for 1000! Thank goodness for resistance. Who knows, maybe because the mobs would never hit is why it was changed, kidding, but being practical, Mobs hit for 1000 far more than we do when using this spell.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed.
You think and trust that KI knows what they are doing, then you should have trusted them in the first place and left Guardian spirit alone. It was the complaints of the PvP players, that want easy wins that protested this spell and got it changed to begin with. So, you sit here and tell us to Take it or Leave it? I think you are addressing the wrong crowd!
And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
Again, See above statements!
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. My dear watson, we did not say the spell was useless. A few did, in another post, but not here. Please read before you comment. However, we did say, that this change does not effect PvP as much as it effects PvE, as gear used will be different.
I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless?
Please show me exactly where in all of these posts, that we are all calling this spell useless? Please, point that out.
It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
Oh enlightened one, please teach us!
Now, let me enlighten you, since you obviously have not read the title of this thread, it states: The Subservience of PvE to PvP.
Meaning, that PvP comes before PvE when it comes to spells and changes. This is what the problem is and the issue that we are having, so, before you rant, get the facts please.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting. You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it. Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed. And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
btw you do know that pve enemies have no heal boost what so ever right so really it would just be pretty easy to kill them after they resarect especialy because they lose all there pips when you kill them
Ok, whatever guys. But imo, I really dont think this post is going anywhere or will it change it. I will not waste time on a post that goes nowhere, or will probably die down eventually. I dont post very much, but I can read. No offense but, I really dont see something changing in the future. So really, just deal with it, you'll survive.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting.
Over Reacting? Are you new to the message boards? PvP complaints have constantly nerfed spells and the expansion of this game. There is no other way to look at it or explain it. It's fact!
You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it.
Oh no, what ever would we do? Well, considering that if all enemies are dead, the people after do not waste their spells or pips, since KI fixed this issue, I am sure, we would simply kill them again in the next round. Oh my, that was too hard of a concept to overcome, you are completely right.
Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
Interesting theory, do you have any facts or evidence to back up your statement? Thought not.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
Actually, before, the mobs would have constantly fizzled, instead of always hit with it. Now, there is just a minor chance that they hit us with 10 or 100 damage, but it is only minor, since the majority of the time, they hit us for 1000! Thank goodness for resistance. Who knows, maybe because the mobs would never hit is why it was changed, kidding, but being practical, Mobs hit for 1000 far more than we do when using this spell.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed.
You think and trust that KI knows what they are doing, then you should have trusted them in the first place and left Guardian spirit alone. It was the complaints of the PvP players, that want easy wins that protested this spell and got it changed to begin with. So, you sit here and tell us to Take it or Leave it? I think you are addressing the wrong crowd!
And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
Again, See above statements!
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. My dear watson, we did not say the spell was useless. A few did, in another post, but not here. Please read before you comment. However, we did say, that this change does not effect PvP as much as it effects PvE, as gear used will be different.
I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless?
Please show me exactly where in all of these posts, that we are all calling this spell useless? Please, point that out.
It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
Oh enlightened one, please teach us!
Now, let me enlighten you, since you obviously have not read the title of this thread, it states: The Subservience of PvE to PvP.
Meaning, that PvP comes before PvE when it comes to spells and changes. This is what the problem is and the issue that we are having, so, before you rant, get the facts please.
Yeah so? How do you know its only because of pvp? Well, you dont. Do you work for KI? Can you read there minds? It wouldn't kill you to think outside the box. It might seem like pvp ruined those nerfed spells, but the obvious answer may have more than one meaning.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting. You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it. Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed. And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
so let me ask you, how would you feel if ki introduced a 4 pip LIFE spell like meteor frog ect that did 500 damage all enemies and then bumbed it down to 350 damage because of pvp complainers?
I'd say, KI I think you were right. A 500 damahe aoe is OP for life anyway. Why? Because its too powerful for 4 pips. Look at seraph, for example. Its weaker and its not even all enemies. 350 is actually the right damage amount. So um, I wouldnt care as much as you. Just saying, I'm really not that needy.
Ok, whatever guys. But imo, I really dont think this post is going anywhere or will it change it. I will not waste time on a post that goes nowhere, or will probably die down eventually. I dont post very much, but I can read. No offense but, I really dont see something changing in the future. So really, just deal with it, you'll survive.
Thats all I have to say.
ah my dear friend how many times have you seen a post that was asking ki to do something well let me awnser the question for you. almost all post on the forums are about complaining or asking ki to do something(granted there are a few post of praise to Ki) so i trully beleive you when you say you dont post much because obvilously you dont read much on the forums.
Joe, I'm sorry that you and I disagree on this topic. I enjoy reading your posts, and I respect your knowledge and skill in PvP. I think that such a hobby is no less wonderful and gratifying than my own PvE hobbies. However, I will never support the idea the PvP is more important than PvE in Wizard101, and I do not appreciate the current atmosphere of such an unequal treatment of the larger community to satisfy the desires of a few.
As always, Warmest Regards,
Qbb/Iridian Shadowweaver
QBB,
I'm sorry too, as I have agreed with everything that you have posted in the past. On this one subject we clearly have a different point of view.
My first question to you is this, if the PVP communinity left W101, could this game last, and if so, how long?
If you look at other Combat games, runescape, Call of Duty (many versions) and many platforms, Zombies, wow, and I can go on and on in a huge list. Any one of these games are simply huge when compaired to W101. The 10 million that W101 has does not compare in size to any one of these. KI knows that, and that is exactly why PVP was added to the game, to stop millions from getting bored after the completion of a world.
So, I really see it differently in the aspect that the PVE is all that keeps W101 alive. If you look at the massive amount of hardcore gammers (please see Gammer mag, Game informer, etc) and look at how many play PVP games, you will gain a different perspective. They list W101 and the number of players, they also list other games and the number of players. Believe me when I say, W101 PVE is still a very very small part of the PVP game world. I have two brothers, one that is 11, and one that is 14, I am older. Of all of their friends and all of mine, I don't know one that does not PVP. I think the three of us have brought in over 26 players to the game. It's not just boys that play PVP, lots of girls play it too.
So, when you say.... "I do not appreciate the current atmosphere of such an unequal treatment of the larger community to satisfy the desires of a few."
I do not feel that we are the few, but really and most likely the majority.
No one likes their spells nerfed, I wasn't happy when my Storm got nerfed. I most likely won't be very happy when they nerf Mana burn. I wasn't happy when I saw what my Death got for spells in Avalon. Lots of things have not make me happy, like the spell shatter. When I feel that a spell is very unfair, I complain, and I don't feel that it's wrong. If a spell makes PVP unplayable, or makes one Wizard far more powerful than another, I feel that KI needs to look at it.
KI has never changed a spell just because people have complained. I whinned when Judgement came out, it was as unfair as could be. I whinned when Fire hound came out at 130 per pip. My whinner list goes on and on, but KI never changed one of them. That convinced me that they only change a spell when it really needs to be changed.
If you take PVP out of the game, it will eventually fail, I have seen this in several games on the www (unless geared for very small children).
If we only had PVE, then your correct, no spell needs to be changed. Since all spells affect both halfs of the game, all spells need to be fair to both sides.
your friend, Joe.
joe i have the highest respect for you even though you hardly know me and i hardly know you but just forget you man(plz no offense just trying to make a bold satement here) your love for pvp is to great for you to see pvp is hurting pve this game started without it and grew you cant see that either i know your probaly gone now but hey just felt the need to post. KI is choosing pvp rather than pve and instead of telling us you realize that you rant on about how pvp is huge in DIFFERENT games and how you think wizards 101 would fail without pvp. im sorry joe but you just cant see whats going on through your love to pvp
I have been following this " discussion" for a while on here and on Central. I have a Warlord wiz that I worked on before pets, amulets, etc and finally make it 1v1. These are my observations for what its worth lol.
Without a doubt, pvp helped me to hone my skills in my trained schools and definitely made me a better player in PvE. I believe that originally that was the reason for adding PvP and as something to break up the gameplay of questing. Let me add that this was before CL.
Maybe I am still a purist at heart lol, but I think an easy solution would be if only trained spells can be used in PVP. I think this would help put PvE and Pvp back into balance. There are so many training points available in the game and it would allow for diversity and challenge. Each person can decide for themselves what route to go with their training points. It would also help low and mid level PvP from using high ranking spells. Everyone would still have the equal opportunity to craft better gear and train pets as that is open to everyone...just takes the time and willingness to put that effort into it.
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting.
Over Reacting? Are you new to the message boards? PvP complaints have constantly nerfed spells and the expansion of this game. There is no other way to look at it or explain it. It's fact!
You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it.
Oh no, what ever would we do? Well, considering that if all enemies are dead, the people after do not waste their spells or pips, since KI fixed this issue, I am sure, we would simply kill them again in the next round. Oh my, that was too hard of a concept to overcome, you are completely right.
Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
Interesting theory, do you have any facts or evidence to back up your statement? Thought not.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
Actually, before, the mobs would have constantly fizzled, instead of always hit with it. Now, there is just a minor chance that they hit us with 10 or 100 damage, but it is only minor, since the majority of the time, they hit us for 1000! Thank goodness for resistance. Who knows, maybe because the mobs would never hit is why it was changed, kidding, but being practical, Mobs hit for 1000 far more than we do when using this spell.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed.
You think and trust that KI knows what they are doing, then you should have trusted them in the first place and left Guardian spirit alone. It was the complaints of the PvP players, that want easy wins that protested this spell and got it changed to begin with. So, you sit here and tell us to Take it or Leave it? I think you are addressing the wrong crowd!
And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
Again, See above statements!
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. My dear watson, we did not say the spell was useless. A few did, in another post, but not here. Please read before you comment. However, we did say, that this change does not effect PvP as much as it effects PvE, as gear used will be different.
I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless?
Please show me exactly where in all of these posts, that we are all calling this spell useless? Please, point that out.
It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
Oh enlightened one, please teach us!
Now, let me enlighten you, since you obviously have not read the title of this thread, it states: The Subservience of PvE to PvP.
Meaning, that PvP comes before PvE when it comes to spells and changes. This is what the problem is and the issue that we are having, so, before you rant, get the facts please.
Yeah so? How do you know its only because of pvp? Well, you dont. Do you work for KI? Can you read there minds? It wouldn't kill you to think outside the box. It might seem like pvp ruined those nerfed spells, but the obvious answer may have more than one meaning.
wow you are the most unimformed person ive ever seen on the forums. i havent seen one pve complaint about this spell. and btw you obvilously dont have an opinion for anything do you. you just folow ki like a loyal dog folows his master
No offense but, I think you guys are over reacting. You might think that gaurdian spirit was changed only because of pvp, but did you think on how it made pvp and pve better? What if life monsters started using gaurdian spirit, or cheating bosses starting using it. Some of you wouldn't like that would you? So I really think KI made the right decision on changing it, because if monsters started using it i'm pretty sure not to many people would be happy about that.
For example, wild bolt was changed, some might think only because of pvp complaints. But look now, aren't storm mobs using wild bolt? And if wild bolt was still the same, people from pve might have complained about that.
And really, everyone who does pvp does pve anyway, unless your level 1 doing pvp.
I really think trust that KI knows what there doing, and you people should too. I think KI saw that maybe gaurdian spirit was a little too much, so it was changed. And if you dont like the change, I mean this in the nicest way possible but,
Take it or leave it.
I'm a life wizard myself, And gaurdian spirit is still very useful to me. I dont use it on myself, I use it on my friends. You use this spell to be prepared, so if you or your friend dies, you can get revived the same turn. As a life wizard, in group play I put this spell on all of my friends before I do anything. Then I dont have worry about healing everyone, and can attack the entire battle. I dont care if its 15%, you can revive someone from the dead ahead of time! And you guys are calling that spell useless? It puzzles me on how some of you cant see the true value of a change, or a spell. No matter how much the spell heals, reviving some one from the dead ahead of time is well worth it, and only a decent life wizard would understand the true power of gaurdian spirit, and know how to make strategy with it, even if its 15%.
so let me ask you, how would you feel if ki introduced a 4 pip LIFE spell like meteor frog ect that did 500 damage all enemies and then bumbed it down to 350 damage because of pvp complainers?
I'd say, KI I think you were right. A 500 damahe aoe is OP for life anyway. Why? Because its too powerful for 4 pips. Look at seraph, for example. Its weaker and its not even all enemies. 350 is actually the right damage amount. So um, I wouldnt care as much as you. Just saying, I'm really not that needy.
hmm i guess you have a point there but i was trying to make a point as well and my point was how would you like it if life got a good spell and then it got downgraded and you couldnt see the reason why(most pve life players see it that way because pvp players just couldnt handle GS could they).
I'd like to respond on the topic of the PvP community vs. PvE community and the balance within the Wizard101 community as a whole. The topic of the Spirit Guardian itself is a separate issue and I'll get to that later (in another post).
Starting with QBB's comment at the top and taking into consideration comments from the replies (of which I will not quote), I will try to revert to the original topic at hand: the fact that it is believed by most that K.I. has fallen victim to the outbursts of a small percentage of the Wizard101 community. The finger has been pointed at those who have spoken out about a new spell being unfair in the PvP community. What I believe K.I. has failed to consider, is the remaining percentage of players who did not complain, speak out, or provide any feedback at all. Most of those "satisfied customers" aren't going to worry or think to comment when they are kept happy.
Consider now the breakdown of the community into the various groupings. Players would most likely fall into one of these groups of those who: * PvE exclusively, * PvE mostly and PvP a little bit, *PvE and PvP equitably, *PvE a little bit and PvP mostly, * PvP almost exclusively (as one must PvE in order to improve)
Out of all these groups, only a small percentage from each represent those of us who read and comment on the various forums. Already that has to account for a small percentage of the overall population of the game, as we would represent a portion from every group. So, then an even smaller percentage would represent those from a strong PvP community. This is the group identified in the discussion as those who have swayed the developers at K.I. to listen to their feedback with considerable weight.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and K.I. has an accountability to listen to those opinions and formulate their decisions on what they feel is the best and most fair. They have a great responsibility to keep the successes and failures of all their clientele in check to ensure fairness across the board.
As players, we are very privileged to have access to the staff of K.I. who place value in the comments they receive in the various forums that are provided for us to comment within. And this is a very good example of where they've begun to place too much weight on the feedback they receive.
Somewhere, it seems they have failed to consider the unspoken percentage of players who have most likely been happy and satisfied with the way everything in the game has been designed and implemented. And because of which, have not thought to speak up, or those that have, their good comments account for a smaller percentage than the negative ones.
It shouldn't matter what percentage is placed on each of the above groups. What matters is that these two arenas, PvP and PvE, are becoming more and more separate proportionally to the evolution of the game. K.I. needs to respond with changes to ensure fairness to both, but without allowing one to influence them at a cost to the other.
We all have equal rights to play in the game. I agree those who Pay to Play, whether they are subscribers or purchase crowns, should not be left at a disadvantage as a result of the feedback received from a community that has free access in the game. I'm not saying they don't have a right to speak up; we all have a right to our say regardless of whether we pay or not. I'm also not saying that K.I. shouldn't listen to those that don't pay over those that do - but the amount of influence they allow is what matters. They need to consider all sides in order to effectively manage the balance (those who speak up AND those who don't). The scales have been tipped in this case, and that is the point I believe QBB was trying to make. (Please, QBB, do correct me if I have failed to see your point).
Your assessment stands firm. The problem is one that was hidden for a long time, and I think an unexpected issue. I imagine that it is just as surprising to KI as it is to many of us that this has happened. In my mind/imagination the family-friendly focus of W101 probably didn't address the PvP'ish at the outset, and then, suddenly, all types of gamers began to play. When that happened, the family-friendly focus became stretched, then pushed, to accommodate one type of player: the hardcore gamer. The hard core gamer is not the same as the family/casual gamer. Thus, these gamers came to the Spiral with behavior patterns learned in other games. One of those patterns seems to have been that PvP is the most important focus for the game, since that is true in so many other games. And they began to agitate for changes to the game to serve PvP. I imagine this was all a slow-developing surprise for all of us.
BUT, W101 is different. There are family-oriented adults who play this game, and we care about it just as we care about the playgrounds in our neighborhoods. On top of that, a new demographic of players, hey Ladies!!!, has changed the social aspect of MMO, since we tend to prefer polite, equal interactions. Families, ladies, and hard core gamers in the same environment? KI, what magical discord have you wrought?
It's a good thing we specialize in magic. But I'm thinking we may need some Wysterian magic to remedy this clash of wills.
Thanks, Destiny, for weighing in. It's wonderful to see you here. Please post often :)
I'd like to respond on the topic of the PvP community vs. PvE community and the balance within the Wizard101 community as a whole. The topic of the Spirit Guardian itself is a separate issue and I'll get to that later (in another post).
Starting with QBB's comment at the top and taking into consideration comments from the replies (of which I will not quote), I will try to revert to the original topic at hand: the fact that it is believed by most that K.I. has fallen victim to the outbursts of a small percentage of the Wizard101 community. The finger has been pointed at those who have spoken out about a new spell being unfair in the PvP community. What I believe K.I. has failed to consider, is the remaining percentage of players who did not complain, speak out, or provide any feedback at all. Most of those "satisfied customers" aren't going to worry or think to comment when they are kept happy.
Consider now the breakdown of the community into the various groupings. Players would most likely fall into one of these groups of those who: * PvE exclusively, * PvE mostly and PvP a little bit, *PvE and PvP equitably, *PvE a little bit and PvP mostly, * PvP almost exclusively (as one must PvE in order to improve)
Out of all these groups, only a small percentage from each represent those of us who read and comment on the various forums. Already that has to account for a small percentage of the overall population of the game, as we would represent a portion from every group. So, then an even smaller percentage would represent those from a strong PvP community. This is the group identified in the discussion as those who have swayed the developers at K.I. to listen to their feedback with considerable weight.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and K.I. has an accountability to listen to those opinions and formulate their decisions on what they feel is the best and most fair. They have a great responsibility to keep the successes and failures of all their clientele in check to ensure fairness across the board.
As players, we are very privileged to have access to the staff of K.I. who place value in the comments they receive in the various forums that are provided for us to comment within. And this is a very good example of where they've begun to place too much weight on the feedback they receive.
Somewhere, it seems they have failed to consider the unspoken percentage of players who have most likely been happy and satisfied with the way everything in the game has been designed and implemented. And because of which, have not thought to speak up, or those that have, their good comments account for a smaller percentage than the negative ones.
It shouldn't matter what percentage is placed on each of the above groups. What matters is that these two arenas, PvP and PvE, are becoming more and more separate proportionally to the evolution of the game. K.I. needs to respond with changes to ensure fairness to both, but without allowing one to influence them at a cost to the other.
We all have equal rights to play in the game. I agree those who Pay to Play, whether they are subscribers or purchase crowns, should not be left at a disadvantage as a result of the feedback received from a community that has free access in the game. I'm not saying they don't have a right to speak up; we all have a right to our say regardless of whether we pay or not. I'm also not saying that K.I. shouldn't listen to those that don't pay over those that do - but the amount of influence they allow is what matters. They need to consider all sides in order to effectively manage the balance (those who speak up AND those who don't). The scales have been tipped in this case, and that is the point I believe QBB was trying to make. (Please, QBB, do correct me if I have failed to see your point).
