Instead of toning down the mobs of Mirage, will somebody in KI pay attention to another serious problem that nobody has mentioned? Any battle that is too difficult for a team of two experienced players should not be required to progress in the game, but that's what's happened at the end of Polaris.
The reason more casual players and solo players aren't complaining about Mirage being too difficult is because they never got a chance to even GET INTO Mirage for testing! Many casual players got stalled at the Rat and then gave up, and it's the same with solo players who can't put together a functioning team of four using "team up." There are still calls for help with the Rat on the Polaris board every week and that's just the tiny vocal fraction who bother to post. Most probably gave up quietly and walked away.
If they come back hoping to get into Mirage, are they going to find that the Rat is still nearly impossible to beat without an expert team of four sporting Darkmoor gear?
When Celestia first came out, players had to beat the Warehouse, a cheating dungeon that was too intense for casual players. There was a huge uproar because half the player base was effectively locked out of the new content. Unless KI tames the Rat, the same thing will happen when Mirage goes live.
You and me both. ;) I started playing Wizard101 in early High School and I'm now in college and still enjoying it as much as I did then. More "mature" games don't always correlate with age, but I've had a lot of people ask me, "Wizard101, isn't that a kids game?" While people who are familiar with the game know it's a family game and that it has challenging aspects, it's hard to shake that perception once it's formed. I wouldn't be surprised if people stopped playing because they deemed themselves "too old" for it (even if that's not the case) or people have avoided playing it altogether because they assume it's a kids game.
I just hope they don't abandon their current audience while trying to appeal to a new one. Again, this is all speculation. I don't know why the difficulty seems to be increasingly different, I'm just throwing out possible motivations.
~Vanessa Mythdust
Your story sounds similar to my own. I pretty much only play "kid" games.
Instead of toning down the mobs of Mirage, will somebody in KI pay attention to another serious problem that nobody has mentioned? Any battle that is too difficult for a team of two experienced players should not be required to progress in the game, but that's what's happened at the end of Polaris.
The reason more casual players and solo players aren't complaining about Mirage being too difficult is because they never got a chance to even GET INTO Mirage for testing! Many casual players got stalled at the Rat and then gave up, and it's the same with solo players who can't put together a functioning team of four using "team up." There are still calls for help with the Rat on the Polaris board every week and that's just the tiny vocal fraction who bother to post. Most probably gave up quietly and walked away.
If they come back hoping to get into Mirage, are they going to find that the Rat is still nearly impossible to beat without an expert team of four sporting Darkmoor gear?
When Celestia first came out, players had to beat the Warehouse, a cheating dungeon that was too intense for casual players. There was a huge uproar because half the player base was effectively locked out of the new content. Unless KI tames the Rat, the same thing will happen when Mirage goes live.
Alia Misthaven
Yep. I agree. I bet a lot of people can't even test Mirage because they are stuck at that awful boss. After a couple of days and several messy fails, my friends and I finally got thru the Rat. Even the battle in which we finally killed him was pretty messy, and at one point we weren't sure we would win that battle either. None of us has a stitch of DM gear, but of course we were told by the hardcore players that DM was a place for them, not casuals, that it was optional, and that we didn't NEED DM gear to succeed. Well we didn't NEED it, but it would have sure helped immensely, since it was very hard for us to get the required pierce to take down those mobs. We are real life friends, using a voice chat program, and you could hear the tension in our voices. We were not having a fun time. It was very stressful.
I can't take that stress anymore. Its just not fun for me, or a lot of other average players. I wish something could be done to make this game fun for everyone, hardcore and average alike, but at the end of the day, I bet there are more average players than hardcore. After all, there are more regular people in the world than the elite, and MMOs mimic the world as far as human nature goes,because humans are humans, and its humans playing MMOs
Here are three specific ways to successfully accommodate everyone:
1. Have different difficulty servers or zones:
Easy, Moderate, Hard, Hardcore, and Insane
Appropriate rewards according to the difficultly level
Rare drops rates naturally increase
Opportunity to earn additional badges created for each area
2.Tone down mobs
3. Have optional challenge dungeons
Designed for hardcore players who crave and demand harder challenges and content
This approach allows all players to enjoy and experience the game; with bragging rights going to anyone able to get through harder content.
1. Have different difficulty zones or servers.
This is an awesome idea and I wish it could be a reality. I've seen it mentioned somewhere that someone plays MMO's that have these features. I actually do too. What they failed to mention was that those games launched with this feature, it wasn't added in years down the line. I'm not saying it's impossible to add but it's not something that's just going to be tossed in before mirage goes live. This is going to require a major overhaul if it can be done at all.
2. Tone down mobs.
There is this saying you have that you've posted in these forums over the years has kept me from complaining about a few things and made me try harder when things weren't going my way. Time for people to put on their big wizard pants and find a way to make it work. I'm sure it's not 100% accurate quote but I think it applies. We are 110 going to 120. It is hard, it is not impossible however.
3. Have optional challenge dungeons
Again great idea and KI started this with darkmoor, I think we could use more difficult dungeons if storyline content is made easier. The flipside is we get 3 updates per year, one major two minor and only the major one do we get new story content. So we either get story content or harder dungeon content once a year. which is going to alienate causal players more? This is a leaner Kingsisle now, a lot of people were let go. These suggestions while great aren't something that's realistic. If I was Leah Ruben(Professor Falmea), I'd be like hell yeah lets do that. But I'm not nor do I know what constraints she's under to get new content out.
It's not just that the first mobs in Caravan start out with 2000+ more hp than the average mobs in the last areas of Polaris.
-it's not just that they often have over 100% damage boost, or use enchanted versions of spells, or both. Or skilfully stack blades, traps, and bubbles, and keep a pierce aura up at all times.
It's that the world has some 6 major zones with multiple areas, and each one of these has several mob fights. Despite your best plans, you will end up having to solo some of these. Even a well-coordinated questing team will have days when one person cannot be on, or someone had to work late, or half the group have kept going and the other two players got left behind.
A lot of folks have compared the damage, pierce, and crit/block stats on these street mobs with pvp stats on a competitive pvp player.
Now I don't need to tell you this, but you can probably guess, that if you and a teammate go into a 2v2 ranked pvp match and your teammate flees or disconnects - you will very probably lose that match.
The final straw that broke the Dromel's back, is that nearly all the instances, even the ones containing only ordinary mobs, are Non-portable. Should you find yourself questing alone, and team-up is its usual vast desert wastes, you cannot even ask a level 100 with a good healing stat to come in and help you get past the storm beetles or a handful of monkeys. It is rather galling to find that even the most unrewarding dungeons with zero loot and zero xp are still locked up tight to prevent us from calling on friends.
A teacher once said, "If you're complaining and you don't stop to think of a solution, it's whining". So here's my compromise: --Ramp up mob health from high 4500 range to current over the span of the world --Allow friends to port into non xp granting instances --Please consider capping natural attacks at 4-6 pips --Listen to Eric Stormbringer and Vanessa M
I have not had a chance to read this entire thread, nor have I played the test realm, but I just did the quests to open up Mirage now that it is live. Yeah, they are a challenge and I got through them. However, my sister could not. This is a family friendly game and my sister, who has a learning disorder, is now through with the game because it is too difficult for her. We typically play together and the quests to find the spiral door are solo only. So in order to help her, I had to get on her laptop and do it for her. My hope is my sister will calm down enough that she will want to play again, but seeing this thread here has me thinking its not a good idea. Its sad, because now I lose the only person I have to play with. I hope these mob fights are not so difficult that they cannot be soloed.
I am thinking that these battles that are challenging need to be available for group play as well as solo. A lot of games have their difficult instances/dungeons/raids as side quests. You can skip over them and continue to enjoy the game. Yes, you miss out on gear, the challenge, and other elements, but people who are not high end players can still play the game. I feel like KI has forgotten just how diverse their player base is. I'll be passing on Mirage until my sister wants to try again or I get my next highest level wizard there.
This is an awesome idea and I wish it could be a reality. I've seen it mentioned somewhere that someone plays MMO's that have these features. I actually do too. What they failed to mention was that those games launched with this feature, it wasn't added in years down the line. I'm not saying it's impossible to add but it's not something that's just going to be tossed in before mirage goes live. This is going to require a major overhaul if it can be done at all.
2. Tone down mobs.
There is this saying you have that you've posted in these forums over the years has kept me from complaining about a few things and made me try harder when things weren't going my way. Time for people to put on their big wizard pants and find a way to make it work. I'm sure it's not 100% accurate quote but I think it applies. We are 110 going to 120. It is hard, it is not impossible however.
3. Have optional challenge dungeons
Again great idea and KI started this with darkmoor, I think we could use more difficult dungeons if storyline content is made easier. The flipside is we get 3 updates per year, one major two minor and only the major one do we get new story content. So we either get story content or harder dungeon content once a year. which is going to alienate causal players more? This is a leaner Kingsisle now, a lot of people were let go. These suggestions while great aren't something that's realistic. If I was Leah Ruben(Professor Falmea), I'd be like hell yeah lets do that. But I'm not nor do I know what constraints she's under to get new content out.
I am glad to see that KI has noticeably decreased the health of mobs in here. The biggest drop I have seen is the mimics which used to be 14k and are now 5k. However, I do believe KI should look at damage output now. The monsters are dealing above base damage to me and I'm in full DM gear with an ideal pet. I worry about how many players without access to this gear are doing since they are taking at least 2x as much damage as I am per hit.
To be clear Vanessa and I aren't bad players looking for an easy way out. We are also not casual players looking to make the world too easy. I completed Mirage on my Storm Day 2, was halfway through Mirage with videos to solo's of every cheating boss to that point on my death. We both invented strategies to take down old cob in 4 rounds and 5 rounds respectively. We aren't coming from a position of self-interest- we are simply concerned for the many, many players who have expressed difficulties with this world.
I have not had a chance to read this entire thread, nor have I played the test realm, but I just did the quests to open up Mirage now that it is live. Yeah, they are a challenge and I got through them. However, my sister could not. This is a family friendly game and my sister, who has a learning disorder, is now through with the game because it is too difficult for her. We typically play together and the quests to find the spiral door are solo only. So in order to help her, I had to get on her laptop and do it for her. My hope is my sister will calm down enough that she will want to play again, but seeing this thread here has me thinking its not a good idea. Its sad, because now I lose the only person I have to play with. I hope these mob fights are not so difficult that they cannot be soloed.
I am thinking that these battles that are challenging need to be available for group play as well as solo. A lot of games have their difficult instances/dungeons/raids as side quests. You can skip over them and continue to enjoy the game. Yes, you miss out on gear, the challenge, and other elements, but people who are not high end players can still play the game. I feel like KI has forgotten just how diverse their player base is. I'll be passing on Mirage until my sister wants to try again or I get my next highest level wizard there.
It was stories like this that I was fearful of when I first made this thread. I'm sorry to hear that your sister has become frustrated with Mirage. :( She's not alone based on what I've read in countless other places. Hopefully KingsIsle will take the feedback they receive and adjust accordingly.
still, this is what i (and others) have been saying for years: the main storyline quests should be just enough that your average player- someone who doesn't have tons of spare time, a full buddy list, or thousands of crowns- can complete it without difficulty. but we were told by the hardcore players to leave it alone because *they* were happy with the way things were.
i'm in college and can't play during the school year; therefore, i end up doing most things alone, and finding a team for the things i can't do myself, either because of cheats or difficulty level, is next to impossible.
i haven't gotten too far yet. but i just got my back end handed to me by 2 mobs who were hitting me for ~1100-2000 damage every couple of rounds (blade stacking, pierce, the bubble that's there without being cast)... and i haven't even left caravan yet.
have i mentioned that the mobs critical constantly? (i'd love to be able to block just one)
now that community leaders and the hardcore players who were formerly against us are now speaking out against this, maybe kingsisle will start listening... i'd love for the game to be fun again.
It was stories like this that I was fearful of when I first made this thread. I'm sorry to hear that your sister has become frustrated with Mirage. :( She's not alone based on what I've read in countless other places. Hopefully KingsIsle will take the feedback they receive and adjust accordingly.
~Vanessa Mythdust
Your correct in that she isn't alone. I've played wizard101 for over 7 years now. I have 2 accounts and a total of 10 wizards which I maxed out. I can't even guess as to the amount of money I have spent over the years playing this game but sadly I think its come to an end. When a game become nothing but frustration instead of fun its time to find another game to play. Darkmoore and then the rat got me so frustrated I was first thinking about giving up the game and now after doing a fraction of mirage I'm tossing in the towel. Enough is enough. I work to hard during the day. (Yeah that's right I'm an adult. A 49 year old adult. So I've probably been playing computer games longer then most here are alive.) To come home and instead of relaxing and playing an enjoyable game I find out its nothing but frustration and aggravation. Sorry KI you dropped the ball. Listen don't listen to us it really doesn't matter to me anymore. I'm quite sure there are other game manufacturer's out there that will.
Good luck to all and maybe I'll see you on another an other game when you finally see having fun is much better then getting frustrated.
I'm sorry to hear that. :( Hopefully the community can encourage change and prevent anyone else from leaving. I absolutely love this game and want it to continue for many years to come.
Darkmoor arguably has the best universal gear in the game right now, so I can understand your frustration about that. Technically it's a side area, but if you want to stay up to date ... it's hard to avoid it.
~Vanessa Mythdust
I too have decided to leave the game, after changing my gear to 89% resist only to be hit with 2300 from a mob and not a boss is ridiculous, it's unfair to take what we fight to gain with each level increase, they done nothing but slap everyone in the face with this new world, also excuse me for having to school the creators on things but, cheating is not making things more challenging it's only cheating! Bosses that are totally immune? Mob that critical hits and critical blocks 89% of the time while you steal our critical and block with each level we gain? What did these characters fight to get so powerful, it makes no sense what so ever and I guarantee you more will drop out of the game because of your neglect to listen to the ones paying your salaries, yes we the people pay you not the so called boss you have, because if not for the people you nor your boss would be in the positions you are in, your drops in this world are weak! If they are going to cut through our defenses with what has to be 75% pierce then we should be able to protect ourselves, our pet's don't heal as much, blades hardly spawn, no help from the characters were carting around the world, who in their right mind wants to trade defense for pip conversion? Shouldn't that be for the levels where you would need pip conversion? You blew it Kings Isle, no A for effort either.
I did a wee bit of Mirage on test realm, expecting a normal increase in difficulty. What I got was an insane increase in difficulty. There was much purchasing of henchmen, which I normally never have to do. As an ice, I am accustomed to good resist and being able to kill with one-hit (dealing with mobs, not bosses). That never happened. Battles took 20 minutes, sometimes more.
I am a casual player; haven't been on in 2-3 weeks, probably won't be on for another week or so. I have a job, a family, and the holidays are upon us; I simply have neither the time or inclination to spend hours and hours on Wizard. And now that I have discovered Mirage is not geared whatsoever to a player like me, I wonder if logging back in at all makes sense.
There are other things to do in Wiz, of course. But if KI is taking Wiz to a place where only hardcore gamers want to play, there won't be a place for people like me.
still, this is what i (and others) have been saying for years: the main storyline quests should be just enough that your average player- someone who doesn't have tons of spare time, a full buddy list, or thousands of crowns- can complete it without difficulty. but we were told by the hardcore players to leave it alone because *they* were happy with the way things were.
i'm in college and can't play during the school year; therefore, i end up doing most things alone, and finding a team for the things i can't do myself, either because of cheats or difficulty level, is next to impossible.
i haven't gotten too far yet. but i just got my back end handed to me by 2 mobs who were hitting me for ~1100-2000 damage every couple of rounds (blade stacking, pierce, the bubble that's there without being cast)... and i haven't even left caravan yet.
have i mentioned that the mobs critical constantly? (i'd love to be able to block just one)
now that community leaders and the hardcore players who were formerly against us are now speaking out against this, maybe kingsisle will start listening... i'd love for the game to be fun again.
-von
This this this. I have agreed with Von's other posts about main storyline quests for eons, and agree once again. If hardcore gamers want more of a challenge, that's fine, but those should be optional. The main quest line has got to be manageable for normal players.
I'm playing in mirage now, (I didn't play in test) and I think the mobs are a fine difficulty lvl. I am questing with just one other person and we haven't had a problem.
I don't have this problem. The mobs aren't that hard. I'm a Fire wiz with full Malistaire gear, alpha and omega ring, blade of felled titan, fortune teller's eternal gaze, and a pretty decent damage pet with fairy and sprite. this is kind of common level 100+ gear for people to have from what i can see but a lot of people also have a better pet, athame, and ring than I do. I still never had a problem. they do hit kind of hard, but thats the point in my opinion. you want them to be too easy to kill? it would make the game boring and a walk in the park. though, it kind of is a walk in the park, but on a stormy day. i don't see a change in the mobs needed in terms of health, pips, spells, etc. just get friends to quest with and you will never have a problem (if you do, someone in the group is weighing everyone else down and not pulling their own weight). i dont even use my life mastery most of the time because its just not needed. i can build up quickly and hit hard enough without losing half of my health.
still, this is what i (and others) have been saying for years: the main storyline quests should be just enough that your average player- someone who doesn't have tons of spare time, a full buddy list, or thousands of crowns- can complete it without difficulty. but we were told by the hardcore players to leave it alone because *they* were happy with the way things were.
i'm in college and can't play during the school year; therefore, i end up doing most things alone, and finding a team for the things i can't do myself, either because of cheats or difficulty level, is next to impossible.
i haven't gotten too far yet. but i just got my back end handed to me by 2 mobs who were hitting me for ~1100-2000 damage every couple of rounds (blade stacking, pierce, the bubble that's there without being cast)... and i haven't even left caravan yet.
have i mentioned that the mobs critical constantly? (i'd love to be able to block just one)
now that community leaders and the hardcore players who were formerly against us are now speaking out against this, maybe kingsisle will start listening... i'd love for the game to be fun again.
-von
To be clear only some hardcore players wanted the main story hardcore. I have advocated(and continue to advocate) for hardcore side areas which was why I was so disappointed that DM was nerfed. However, I have continually said that if the main storyline started turning hardcore I would be right here defending casual players. Thus, here I am.
My wife and I both started playing Mirage last night. While I like the area and the vastness of Alkali and the rolling dunes, the progressed animation where characters that you talk to move their mouths and run off when you are done their quest line. However, the mob fights are kind of brutal, especially the Dune Buggies. Terrible to fight! In previous worlds we have only used henchmen for boss fights or solo quests, but we have had to rely on henchmen for almost every mob fight, especially those blasted Dune Buggies! Can you please tone it down a bit so the game is fun again?
I have to agree with Vanessa. I just started Mirage last night and I already hate it. The game is no longer fun with dying so much. I was so excited to start the game as I didn't get to test it on the test realm, and now really could care less whether I play it or not. After 8 years on the game, I dread playing. Absolutely despise it and I spend a lot of money on crowns each month! I'm not sure I will be staying on as a member anymore.
This this this. I have agreed with Von's other posts about main storyline quests for eons, and agree once again. If hardcore gamers want more of a challenge, that's fine, but those should be optional. The main quest line has got to be manageable for normal players.
Nice to see you, Von. :D
nice to see you again too, erin :)
last night, i ended up questing with two other players for a bit. we did a couple of mobs, then the trengil hoarder boss... and one of my teammates unknowingly echoed crunkatog's sentiment. she said, "this is like pvp", and the rest of us agreed.
if it's in the main quest line, or it's the only way to get a certain thing that has no craftable or buyable alternative, then it is not an optional instance and this sort of difficulty should not be part of it.
still, i'm going to see how things go... since it's my winter break, i'll have increased odds of being able to plan meetups with friends. but soloing is effectively dead.
I agree as there is no way to adjust any resist because the gear we have is either malistaire gear or Polaris gear which is made for those 2 worlds. Maybe the fact is the mobs themselves should not do a basic attack in which between 65 and 1500 damage can be done and we do not have the resist to cope with it. Also the block is so pitiful that Kingsisle is listening to all the PVP players who complain that questers are killing them too easy. As to resist the normal mobs who are your opposite who used to be a boost to you are no longer a boost except for myth/storm, ice/fire. the others have a resist to their opposites. The aim is to have fun but if you get constantly defeated you will either leave the game or become just a basic casual player instead of a almost full-time player.
still, this is what i (and others) have been saying for years: the main storyline quests should be just enough that your average player- someone who doesn't have tons of spare time, a full buddy list, or thousands of crowns- can complete it without difficulty. but we were told by the hardcore players to leave it alone because *they* were happy with the way things were.
i'm in college and can't play during the school year; therefore, i end up doing most things alone, and finding a team for the things i can't do myself, either because of cheats or difficulty level, is next to impossible.
i haven't gotten too far yet. but i just got my back end handed to me by 2 mobs who were hitting me for ~1100-2000 damage every couple of rounds (blade stacking, pierce, the bubble that's there without being cast)... and i haven't even left caravan yet.
have i mentioned that the mobs critical constantly? (i'd love to be able to block just one)
now that community leaders and the hardcore players who were formerly against us are now speaking out against this, maybe kingsisle will start listening... i'd love for the game to be fun again.
-von
I agree.
I only did the very beginning of Test Realm, but I also thought it felt a bit like PVP style play.
I (and a lot of my long-time friends) noticed a dramatic decrease in my friend lists after Tartarus, and even a more dramatic exodus after Graveyard.
It was a combination of difficult dungeons (for those levels), lousy drops and rate of drops, and the majority of players having to rely on Teams(friends and strangers) which were comprised of very diverse playing styles, philosophy and gear.
I am about 3/4 of the way through Mirage and am doing well but I am dual boxing with a Storm and Life. However, Multi-boxing should not be the new default to avoid frustrating game play, and/or to make up for lack of teams/players available.
I don't have this problem. The mobs aren't that hard. I'm a Fire wiz with full Malistaire gear, alpha and omega ring, blade of felled titan, fortune teller's eternal gaze, and a pretty decent damage pet with fairy and sprite. this is kind of common level 100+ gear for people to have from what i can see but a lot of people also have a better pet, athame, and ring than I do. I still never had a problem. they do hit kind of hard, but thats the point in my opinion. you want them to be too easy to kill? it would make the game boring and a walk in the park. though, it kind of is a walk in the park, but on a stormy day. i don't see a change in the mobs needed in terms of health, pips, spells, etc. just get friends to quest with and you will never have a problem (if you do, someone in the group is weighing everyone else down and not pulling their own weight). i dont even use my life mastery most of the time because its just not needed. i can build up quickly and hit hard enough without losing half of my health.
I'm glad that you seem to be enjoying the way Mirage is now, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Just take a look at all the earlier posts in this thread by people who have already left the game or are seriously considering it.
No, I don't think the game should be a walk in the park, but I do think it should be do-able by everyone. It is supposed to be a family game after all. Not everyone has the time to meet-up with friends to help them nor should they have to. I also don't think that if people have trouble in groups someone is "not pulling their own weight." There are many reasons why a battle might be difficult for someone to complete, and blaming it on another player is not the answer. We should be supporting each other and trying to help them, not abandoning them because they may not be performing as well as you would like. Everyone has different game experiences and has fun in their own way.
Based on your gear, I think it's safe to assume that you're more on the hardcore side of the gaming spectrum. You dedicate time to farm for the best gear and like the increased difficulty. There's nothing wrong with that ... all I ask is that you keep an open mind. Not everyone plays the game like you do, and some people don't have the time and energy to farm for the best gear.
You pointed out that you thought your gearset is "common level 100+ gear." I actually somewhat agree with you, and I think that helps illustrate the problem that I've been trying to address. If casual players don't have the time to farm Darkmoor, and Darkmoor gear has become the new norm, where have the casual players gone? They're disappearing ... and that's not a good thing.
I know you like the difficulty of Mirage, but if people are leaving because of it, isn't that bad for the game? Would you rather have a difficult world that you personally love, but have the game suffer for it? Or would you rather sacrifice some difficulty for a more healthier and growing game?
I'm having enormous fun so far in Mirage. The fights are challenging, and it is very possible to lose (even with good gear) if you're careless or unlucky.
That said, I agree with the community leaders. I am not a typical player; others should be able to play in Mirage without having the game cranked up in difficulty to the degree that it is.
Alia Misthaven
